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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 1
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QUOTE:
| I dunno Joe, from the example Thanos posted, it's pretty clear he's prepared to kill if he absolutely has to. Not with the apparent ease of Wolverine, but there nonetheless. |
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Willingness to kill a murderous alien insect doesn't really make him a killer.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133740
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 2
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Cyclops had the aforementioned marital troubles and usually when guys have that kind of problems they get wasted. Aren't our heroes supposed to be better than us? And by "us" I mean "you", apparently, since, when I got divorced, I neither got "wasted" nor felt any need to.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 7:30am | IP Logged | 3
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from the example Thanos posted, it's pretty clear he's prepared to kill if he absolutely has to. Not with the apparent ease of Wolverine, but there nonetheless.+++ Willingness to kill a murderous alien insect doesn't really make him a killer. Once again we see a classic example of the On/Off Argument. This is usually invoked by the losing side in a debate -- any example of a particular element must be taken as a 100% representation. Thus, for instance, since my father shot and killed at least one Japanese soldier during World War II, he must never be allowed into the presence of people of Japanese extraction, since he will automatically kill them. Unless, of course, we were to factor in context, and the idea that my father taken out of that context might be a perfectly reasonable human being with no homicidal tendencies of note. Sort of like Scott Summers.
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Paul Kimball
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2216
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 4
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John,
It seems like the example you brought up show that we're all complex
enough to have a mix of characteristics. The ability to kill or to save and the
ability to act on this is in all of us.
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Roque Martinez
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 292
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 11:57am | IP Logged | 5
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QUOTE:
| Aren't our heroes supposed to be better than us? |
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He still was. He just let a few drinks get to his head in the company of a close friend. And that's pretty much what happened. It wasn't quite like Tony Stark being drunk and using his armor or Hal Jordan killing (or injuring, I don't remember) someone DUI and then spending months in jail. That's going too far.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133740
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 6
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It seems like the example you brought up show that we're all complex enough to have a mix of characteristics. The ability to kill or to save and the ability to act on this is in all of us. Indeed it is. "We're killers. But we're not going to kill today." But superheroes take that one step further. They are iconic, despite the best efforts of some writers and fans to make them otherwise. Thus, Cyclops might kill another human. Batman might kill. Superman might kill. But always -- always -- as an absolute last resort.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 7
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Aren't our heroes supposed to be better than us?++ He still was. He just let a few drinks get to his head in the company of a close friend. And that's pretty much what happened. It wasn't quite like Tony Stark being drunk and using his armor or Hal Jordan killing (or injuring, I don't remember) someone DUI and then spending months in jail. That's going too far. Comicbook characters are incapable of independent action. Like all fictional characters, they can do no more or less than what the writers, artists and editors want them to do. (This is the main problem with Tony Stark's alcoholism. It did not spring from any internal context, it sprang from the writers deciding to make him an alcoholic.) Cyclops is no different. There were plenty of instances in which Chris and I could have had Scott kill. Killing is something he could do easily, in fact, given his power. Yet, time and again, no matter how great the peril to himself or his teammates, Cyclops did not kill. Not because he chose not to, but because we chose not to have him do so. When you speak of what a character does or does not do in a comicbook story, you are speaking not of the character's motivations, but the writer's. And the job of the writer is to keep the characters always on a plane above that of the readers. To present the chararacters with problems which seem, so far as the reader can deteact, to offer only two or three equally unsatisfactory solutions ---- and then present another that the readers (hopefully) didn't think of. I have no problem with the concept of euthanasia, for instance. In fact, I endorse it, when there is no other alternative. But for superheroes, there should always be another alternative.
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 8
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It really annoyed me in New X-Men when Grant had Cyclops cripling some dissident students.
Then again, the few issues of X-Men I read in the past years, they mistreated or attacked some of their own students so maybe it's an editorial edict to write the X-Men as cruel jerks when dealing with minors. I mean, sending the new students to deal with the hulk in planet hulk is just inane, dark and edgy!
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 9
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Ok ok, also, I'm sorry but I like costumes both ways. What I always enjoyed, are artists that could draw both clothes and costumes. I also enjoy the movie inspired costumes. Sorry! Of course, heroes like Superman, Spiderman or Wonder Woman, their costumes shouldn't change and you should keep the original X-Men school uniform as a recurring theme, but, I always like X-Men better when they wore uniforms. Distinct costumes don't fit the book imo.
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William McCormick
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 February 2006
Posts: 3297
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 10
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Quote:
| 6. introduces sex related and drug related storylines in the X-Men, involving teenagers. | | |
That's true. And preposterous. We all know teenagers don't have sex or do drugs.
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Sarcasm aside, do you really think this has any place in a superhero comic? If I want true life I can turn on the news. You can make all the points defending Morrison, it doesn't change the fact that he had them act out of character. Characterization that had 30+ years of continuity behind it.
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Roque Martinez
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 292
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 11
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QUOTE:
| do you really think this has any place in a superhero comic? |
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The way it was portrayed in NXM? Yes. It wasn't like the anal sex scene in Alias (if it was indeed that), it was shown that having sex and doing drugs had consequences. Probably not for little kids, but for teenagers, which I believe was the target audience, the message was a sound one.
QUOTE:
| it doesn't change the fact that he had them act out of character. |
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What I'm getting at is that Morrison didn't simply came into the title and decided to arbitrarily change the characters personalities and actions. He had sound and believable reasons, based both on past and present storylines, for having them act the way they did.
You may not like it, I may not like it. In fact, I hate the way he portrayed Magneto in Planet X, like a complete Nazi, instead of the Claremont Magneto version which is the one I like the most. But all those 'changes' were well thought and reasonable.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133740
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| Posted: 14 July 2007 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 12
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What I'm getting at is that Morrison didn't simply came into the title and decided to arbitrarily change the characters personalities and actions. Talked to him about this, have you?
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Topic Closed)
