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Topic: Stories that should NEVER be told.. (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 1  

Watchmen -- the earlier Squadron Supreme story told the same tale and did it better -- the only reason this story was so popular, and the only reason it eclipsed the Squadron Supreme story, and the reason it has endured is the undeniable attraction of the cutely benign, iconic yellow smiley with the bloody bullet hole in its forehead.  Reason it didn't need to be told:  This marked the TRUE beginning of the "deconstruction for fun and profit" trend.  Darwyn Cooke's DC: The New Frontier was a much, MUCH stronger story than Watchmen, but nobody even seemed to notice because despite the fact that it told a DAMN good story, it lacked the inherent kewlness of a bloody smiley -- proof positive that there is no accounting for taste.

 

I'll take exception to this as well. John, don't take it personal. This is revisionist claptrap more or less, distancing from the truth of the matter about WATCHMEN and its impact on comics. I believe firmly that comics needed WATCHMEN, and DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. Comics as an art form had to have the ability, the right, to tell these stories. You cannot blame the sickening disintegration of the comic book on those books. You blame the heartless pandering to the fans and the loss of integrity within the medium as a result of factors much larger than telling a great, adult superhero story.

I would even go as far as to say it is criminal that Alan Moore be blamed entirely for the results when Frank Miller is assuredly more at fault. Moore was working (purposely) with characters that no one aside from the most loyal Charlton fans would remember (for that matter, forgotten heroes like Swamp Thing as well...who ever would have cared about Swamp Thing again, if not for Moore?), while Miller was working with one of three or four most iconic characters is the history of the medium, reaching a far larger audience because of it. Regardless, Moore and Miller are geniuses and their work isn't something to be sneered at twenty years later, typical of our throwaway culture.

I bought the Absolute Edition of WATCHMEN and I can say conclusively that it is a great superhero story. As if NEW FRONTIER, as is DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

However, I defy anyone to tell me that James Robinson and Paul Smith's GOLDEN AGE is not a more realistic, fascinating, logiocal superhero story, involving a massive cast and yet allowing every single character their moment, encompassing their entire "lives" in no more than a couple or even one panel. To me, GOLDEN AGE told a seminal story within comic book history, but one reaching hyperreal heights, something none of these other works accomplished.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 2  

Remember, tho, parents are automatically implied by the existance of most characters. You don't suddenly "reveal" that Hal Jordan had a father, or Barry Allen had a mother. Those are givens.

You might reveal something about their natures -- was Hal's father a nice guy? Was Barry's Mom a drunk? -- but there's not going to be any sort of "Hey! I didn't know that!" if some more-or-less human character mentions that he has a Dad and/or a Mom.

Siblings are different. Coincidentally, my housekeeper was here today and mentioned her brother and her sister. This was the first time she had mentioned either. Previously, I had no idea she had siblings. But that's real life, and the "rules" of real life are different from those of fiction. In fiction, if a previously unknown sibling is to be introduced, it better be done with caution.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | 3  

Beneath the modern gloss, Ed Brubaker is writing a very traditional Marvel comic.

***

Give us some examples of what you think are "traditional Marvel comics".

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 4  

I bought the Absolute Edition of WATCHMEN and I can say conclusively that it is a great superhero story.

***

You can call WATCHMEN a great story, if you are so inclined. That's all about taste.

But it is a terrible superhero story.

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Thomas Moudry
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 5  

"What would be truly good for comics is if the fans of pros of today just
disappeared."



That's wrong and elitist. I don't think every single one of the comic book
professionals of today should be painted with the same broad brush, nor
should their fans. Attitudes such as this are just as bad for comics as the
attitudes you target.

Edited by Thomas Moudry on 03 February 2007 at 2:14pm
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James Hanson
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 6  

But it is a terrible superhero story.

Why?



Edited by James Hanson on 03 February 2007 at 2:31pm
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | 7  

It's been over a decade and the only direction this fan-dominated comic book market is going is inwards. That's why I say, we fans should go and find something else to do.


Edited by Joe Zhang on 03 February 2007 at 2:33pm
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Thomas Moudry
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 8  

"It's been over a decade and the only direction this fan-dominated comic
book market is going is inwards. That's why I say, we fans should go and
find something else to do."


Fine and dandy, but that's not what you posted up there. You said the
fans of today's pros should just go away. Of course, I don't want to
presume to read your mind, Joe, but your initial post seems to point to
your wanting the fans of, say, Mark Millar or Brian Michael Bendis to go
away, not that comic book fans should simply abandon the medium en
masse
.

Me, I'm pretty happy with the comics I'm reading these days, and when
something takes a turn toward something I don't like, I stop buying it. It's
really easy.

I've been buying comics a long, long time, Joe--about as long as you've
been alive, I'd wager, maybe longer--and I've seen a lot of things I didn't
like over the course of those years. But I've seen a lot of things I liked,
too, and I see a lot of good today. It may be a touch harder to find since
I'm not a big fan of deconstructionist super-hero comics, but it's there. I
love Robert Kirkman's Invincible, for example. I'm also enjoying Joss
Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, Kurt Busiek's Superman, and Paul
Dini's Detective Comics. That's good stuff. Heck, Brad Meltzer's
Justice League of America
has been good thus far.

Edited by Thomas Moudry on 03 February 2007 at 3:04pm
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James Hanson
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 9  

Jack Staff is good.
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Ted Pugliese
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | 10  

Shaman and Talisman are bad examples of taking a side point against JB.  He created both characters, and therefore, whatever he does with them is right.

Adding unknown siblings to other persons' creations is wrong, as they were not created that way, and probably not intended to be used in whatever new way the writer that added the sibling plans.

As for Brubaker, you want to write Captain America, write Captain America, not someone else in his costume.

I was reading Winter Soldier and enjoying it until he turned out to be Bucky (instead of Nomad).  Wow.  Real shocker.  Cool. 

Not.

Haven't read an issue since.



Edited by Theodore Pugliese on 03 February 2007 at 3:07pm
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Ted Pugliese
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 11  

And don't get me started on Civil War...

Funniest thing is, I was OK with New Avengers.  I figured as long as it was based around Iron Man & Cap, it was simply the New Avengers, another roster change, no matter what Quesada & Bendis said.  Now, Civil War has destroyed the characters and that book before Bendis even got around to finishing the story he started two years ago.  The hell is that (pun intended)?  Two years and you can't finish the freakin' story?

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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 12  

"but your initial post seems to point to
your wanting the fans of, say, Mark Millar or Brian Michael Bendis to go
away, not that comic book fans should simply abandon the medium en
masse
."

If it will get rid of creative cancers like Millar or Bendis, en masse is worth it.

"Joe--about as long as you've
been alive, I'd wager"

I'm in my thirties.

"Heck, Brad Meltzer's
Justice League of America
has been good thus far."

That's highly subjective.


Edited by Joe Zhang on 03 February 2007 at 3:21pm
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