But should superhero stories only be about the ideal moral figure? If you talk about making Superman or Capt. America one of these "shades of grey" types, I am against it all day long. But it seems perfectly fine to create a new character or as JB puts it, Blue Beetle with a mustache, and take them on a totally different type of story.

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That totally different type of story is a totally different type of genre. I love CEREBUS but that's not a superhero story, despite sharing similar elements.

The weird thing is that it seems "civilians" are more inclined to know what superheroes are supposed to be than most fans. I think that's why so many civilians insist Batman is a superhero -- not so much because of the powers but because of what he stands for.

Maybe you're right in that a "hero" should have a perfect sense of morality, but I'm also interested in seeing characters who have powers but happen to reflect average people more. I'd like to think that the genre of the superhero can support a variety of approaches.

That totally different type of story is a totally different type of genre. I love CEREBUS but that's not a superhero story, despite sharing similar elements.

The weird thing is that it seems "civilians" are more inclined to know what superheroes are supposed to be than most fans. I think that's why so many civilians insist Batman is a superhero -- not so much because of the powers but because of what he stands for.

Well, what genre would costumed, super powered crime fighters be in? If Watchmen isn't a superhero story, what is it?

Again, I do want characters like Superman and Batman to keep to their high moral grounds. I hate the basement dwelling, loser Batman and the indecisive, wuss Superman and don't think those characters need "reality".

But I do think there's room for a different approach with different characters. If it's Nite Owl instead of Blue Beetle, that's perfectly fine in my book(and Nite Owl was still treated more respectfully than the buffoonish Blue Beetle has these past few years). I wouldn't say all crime noir books need a tense, down on his luck hero; I wouldn't say all fantasy requires a farmboy with a big destiny; and I wouldn't say all superheroes need to feature a paragon of virtue as it's central figure. There's room for different types of books and enough variety to find what you really like.

Well, what genre would costumed, super powered crime fighters be in? If Watchmen isn't a superhero story, what is it?

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The problem is there just aren't *superheroes* in the story. The Transformers, Thundercats, and G.I. Joe cartoons were "superhero" stories in all relevant thematic aspects, for example. There weren't costumes, per se (at least not originally for G.I. Joe) and the Joes didn't have superpowers but they were closer to the spirit of superhero stories than Watchmen.

Angel, for example, connected to the 10-year-old me's conception of who a superhero is just as Thundercats did two decades ago.

Watchmen doesn't connect to me at all in that way. Is it epic? Is it Shakespearan and operatic in the way great superhero comics are? Yes, but then so was Cerebus, which as I said before, was not a superhero story.

Superheroes, by their very definition, are not "average". The characters in WATCHMEN were certainly more average (below average?).

You'd think that characters who supposedly were once of that ilk could
summon up the strength to do the right thing when one of their own goes
off the deep end and kills millions of people.

That's why it didn't work as a superhero story. And why, as a story, it is
infuriating.

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Maybe you don't recall, but there was a good chunk of the book dedicated to going after the bad guy.  Rorschach was obsessed with it in fact and that's about all he spent his time doing in the entire 12 issues.

One hero finds out that another hero(a now rich super prodigy) has been killing people in preparation for a mock alien invasion in order to prevent world three and also to make the world easier for him to take over(for benevolent purposes of course!) The first hero is killed brutally by being thrown out of a window and the story reveals that he was a sadistic and sociopathic bastard and a rapist who fathered another character.

The other heroes get together AGAINST THE LAW to find out what happened. One is kind of unstable and slutty(the killed heroe's daughter) and is shortly cheating on another hero who is an atomic space god who has transcended mortality and space and time(she is cheating because they don't relate to each other anymore). One is a psycho who is apparently sneaking around butchering bad guys and also a paranoid who believes in a number of strange conspiracy theories. One is a rich fatso who is now doing next to nthing with his life and pining away for a bit of adventure. He bangs the first heroe's daughter who is supposedly with the atomic space god.

They find out that the guy who killed the first hero is the second hero. He beats the shit out of them and convinces the atomic space god that he is right and since the atomic space god can't be beaten the others all back down and hope that the second hero doesn't have them killed.

So most of them heroically give up or in because it was too far along anyway (I did it an hour ago!)  and because the atomic space god seems willing to roast them all. The only one who opposed it was defined as NUTS and spent a good amount of time in prison provoking criminals so he could murder them systematically. He gets fried by the atomic space god but his diary tells all and so at least crazy conspiracy nuts will know the truth but nobody will believe them.

It's ALL so VERY superheroic. Sure. Everyone must have forgotten that stuff.  Right....

I don't see the point in making Superhero's avergae...wouldn't they just be heroes ? Or just people at that point ? I think it is one of the problems comics have today...are they modern day mythology with morals and lessons to be learned or are they a genre of science fiction where people have amazing powers and how the world deals with them ? I think they are called heroes for a reason, and that means they don't get to be normal people. I think if you want them to be normal people you should go read some fiction about normal people. If you want to read about people with amazing powers that are normal, read WIld Cards. But superheroes should be about something, should be the best in all of us. And no I don't think they should be perfect without flaws...I think they should be better than us.

Emery sez:

>>The other heroes get together AGAINST THE LAW to find out what happened. <<

this is the only miss in yer excellent boiling down of Watchmen's failings to be a Superhero story. Super heroes have often been Vigilantes who operate outside and contrary to laws - but not justice.

Ultimately, Watchmen is Crime even Noir, it's Suspense - perhaps in some stretch Science Fiction,  it is after all extrapolated from an Outer Limits episode, right?  But I have never liked the story simply because there isn't a single likeable character worth looking up to in the whole thing.  Magnificently structured storytelling with spot on art. Certainly worth analysis and praise on technical levels.  And if that sorta thing floats your boat, by all means Enjoy it.  But don't' call it a Superhero comic.