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Oliver Staley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 January 2007 Posts: 447
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 1
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I could conjure up a bunch of nonsense about story structure
But it's the story structure, James, that makes Watchmen such a satsifying
read. It's hardly nonsense; it's what makes it so complex and absorbing.
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James Hanson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 February 2006 Posts: 2396
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 2
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3. Have Peter and Gwen break up for good, and move her out of the book (or keep her on in a minor role, as had been done with Betty Brant). However, this would have seemed problematic to fans, since the idea that Peter and Gwen were deeply in love and would eventually marry had been built up for quite some time.
It might have worked had Peter revealed his ID as Spidey, she feels betrayed, and then they break up for good.
But it's the story structure, James, that makes Watchmen such a satsifying read. It's hardly nonsense; it's what makes it so complex and absorbing.
I didn't mean that the structure was nonsense, just that me trying to hyper analyse why I like something when it's just a gut reaction.
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Steve Lieber Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 July 2004 Posts: 295
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | 3
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I thought Watchmen was terrific becuase it applied sophisticated comics storytelling techniques to pull me down the rabbit hole into a well-thought-out and handsomely illustrated world, populated with characters with distinct and intriguing worldviews and goals that put them in conflict with each other and their society. The suspense between issues was brutal because I genuinely cared (and had no idea) what was going to happen next, and I found the various payoffs appropriately satisfying and disturbing.
In her podcast interview at the Agony Column, Susanna Clarke, (the author of Jonathan Strange and Mister Norell,) talked about how she doesn't read many comics, but with Watchmen she was so drawn into the book it nearly made her sick, having to put it down and go to work, knowing it'd be hours and hours before she got home to read the rest of it to find out what would happen. I could certainly sympathize, but my first reaction was "Oh yeah? Try waiting a whole month..."
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Wes Wescovich Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1726
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 4
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When I read Uncanny 137 when it came out, I really enjoyed it, but honestly didn't think Jean was really dead. I had read so many comics over the years that I simply didn't believe that she would stay gone for any significant length of time. Then a friend of mine read my copy of it and seemed deeply touched and continued on and on about how Jean was "gone forever". I remember holding up the comic and telling him, "Man, her name is PHOENIX! Think about it!" And of course, then came Rachel. And Madelyne. And even Jean herself.
I guess my point is that up to that point, there were so few significant characters in comics that had died and stayed dead that I was conditioned not to be concerned that any major player would take a permanent dirt nap. So when Jean returned via the X-Factor story, I wasn't surprised. Was her return a mistake? In the sense that it could have lessened the previous story, yes. For me it didn't, but then I just didn't like the X-Factor book.
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Josh Goldberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 2081
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | 5
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BTW, not only did the story in "Watchmen" not do anything for me, I pretty much hated the artwork too.
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Paul Greer Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 18 August 2004 Posts: 14190
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 6
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Josh, you can hate on Alan Moore but nobody better say anything bag about Dave Gibbons. Dems fighting words!
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Gary S. Lee Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 700
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 6:36pm | IP Logged | 7
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JB:The return of Bucky, whether it is a hoax or not, should have a
profound and permanent effect on Steve Rogers. Bucky's death -- for
which he considers himself at least in some part responsible -- is still a
recent even in Steve Rogers' life. Tearing open the old scars, as with this
"return", should mess with his head in ways we can't begin to imagine.
The Captain America who emerges from the "Winter Soldier" storyline
should be a very different guy from the one who went in.
Is this the point of the story? To turn Cap into a different character?
****
The story's ongoing, but clearly it is getting to him (as may well have
been the Red Skull's plan should it turn out he's responsible). I think, like
the death of Sharon Carter and the return of Sharon Carter among many
other dramatic things in the past (having previously thought the Bucky
had returned on at least one occasion, IIRC), that it won't make him a
different character. It will have a big impact, certainly, in the short term.
Long term, I don't think it will.
G.
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Gary S. Lee Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 700
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 6:50pm | IP Logged | 8
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JB:You can call WATCHMEN a great story, if you are so inclined. That's all
about taste.
But it is a terrible superhero story.
****
I feel the same way.
When I first read WATCHMEN, I was in love with it--the art, the detailed
and artfully constructed storytelling, the symbolism, etc.--up until the
main characters up and decided that when the chips were on the table
that they were going to stop acting like heroes.
What makes a hero isn't his powers or his abilities or skills--it's his/her
principles. Without the moral code and the courage to put it into action
there's nothing heroic or super about them.
And these sad characters had been stripped of what made them
extraordinary (except Rorsarch, he was just made crazy--the only one
who still lived by the code had to be insane). If they were even shadows
of superheroes they would've at least tried something against their
former ally.
G.
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James Hanson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 February 2006 Posts: 2396
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | 9
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What makes a hero isn't his powers or his abilities or skills--it's his/her principles. Without the moral code and the courage to put it into action there's nothing heroic or super about them.
And these sad characters had been stripped of what made them extraordinary (except Rorsarch, he was just made crazy--the only one who still lived by the code had to be insane). If they were even shadows of superheroes they would've at least tried something against their former ally.
But should superhero stories only be about the ideal moral figure? If you talk about making Superman or Capt. America one of these "shades of grey" types, I am against it all day long. But it seems perfectly fine to create a new character or as JB puts it, Blue Beetle with a mustache, and take them on a totally different type of story.
Maybe you're right in that a "hero" should have a perfect sense of morality, but I'm also interested in seeing characters who have powers but happen to reflect average people more. I'd like to think that the genre of the superhero can support a variety of approaches.
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Gary S. Lee Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 700
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 10
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James:But should superhero stories only be about the ideal moral figure?
If you talk about making Superman or Capt. America one of these "shades
of grey" types, I am against it all day long. But it seems perfectly fine to
create a new character or as JB puts it, Blue Beetle with a mustache, and
take them on a totally different type of story.
Maybe you're right in that a "hero" should have a perfect sense of
morality, but I'm also interested in seeing characters who have powers
but happen to reflect average people more. I'd like to think that the genre
of the superhero can support a variety of approaches.
****
Superheroes, by their very definition, are not "average". The characters in
WATCHMEN were certainly more average (below average?).
You'd think that characters who supposedly were once of that ilk could
summon up the strength to do the right thing when one of their own goes
off the deep end and kills millions of people.
That's why it didn't work as a superhero story. And why, as a story, it is
infuriating.
G.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7526
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 11
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Me: I'd go along by saying that WATCHMEN is not a "superhero story"-- it IS still a terrific story…
***
JB: Is it? Not being snarky here -- but what makes WATCHMEN a "terrific story"?
*****
SOME SPOILERS BELOW
For me, WATCHMEN was a good mystery story that delves into some personalities who act out the role of "mystery men"-- along with one genuine superhuman being.
It takes the genre seriously. Many of us may not like the conclusions (or assumptions) Moore draws about the type of people who *might* dress up in costume to become amateur crimefighters, but he isn't saying anything at all about Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, et al... he's keeping his commentary to the pastiches of the Charlton characters that he's created.
It isn't Moore's fault that much of his intent was missed. Rorschach, he has said, was meant to be a pathetic and broken individual, not the "kewlest"-- but that's Wolverine syndrome all over again. Still, Rorschach is the one who stands up for what is basically a heroic principle: crime cannot go unpunished. Heroes cannot look away. He knows that the cost of this principle is unacceptably high, but he forces Dr Manhattan to pull the trigger for him. There's really no way he can take Archie back to civilization-- but he cannot back down from what he knows is right. In that sense, I think Rorschach is a heroic character.
Also, this isn't a story that could be told without "superheroes" (or really costumed vigilantes)-- it's all about postulating some alternate real world, extrapolating what these figures might have meant to our history. It also deals with superhuman, even Nietzchean, concepts of morality: is it moral to kill millions to save the world? Can the world be truly "saved" by a lie?
That WATCHMAN provokes strong reactions and lots of discussion (to me) suggests that it makes people think and think hard. That's a good thing.
That's why I'd say WATCHMEN is a terrific story.
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Trevor Krysak Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4163
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Posted: 04 February 2007 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 12
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Well said, Andrew. Watchmen definitely does not fit as a story that should never have been told. But clearly opinions differ on this.
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