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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 1
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Was Alpha Flight a Direct-Market-only title when it
started out? In the 1980s, I bought all of my comics
at the local pharmacy and convenience stores about
a month or two after they'd hit the Direct Market, and
the letters columns and Bullpen Bulletins pages
were my only source of news and/or rumors.
Readers who picked up their new books at a comic
shop were probably a bit more plugged in than
everyone else, and if the entire audience for the book
was Direct Market customers (and subscribers), I
guess they'd have been more prone to hearing
spoilers than the rest of us.
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Matthew McCallum
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2711
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | 2
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Arvid Spejare wrote: Personally, I'm with the "If some not-exactly-famous sales guy showed artwork not okayed by the editorial which spoiled something big in one of the top selling books, then why in the world wasn't he fired about ten minutes later?"-camp.
Because in the real world you don't automatically fire someone every time that an error occurs. And you're assuming that somebody at M***** HQ was on the ball and/or cared to begin with. But none of that addresses why PAD seems so surprised that JB would have the reaction he did. PAD is now a creative talent; surely after a number of years in the business he might have developed an empathy or understanding about what it feels like to have your efforts undermined, whether or not it was an "approved" effort.
Edited by Matthew McCallum on 29 August 2006 at 4:42pm
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | 3
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Let's put this in perspective, folks. Professional sabotage is
something that happens. And it happens a lot to JB. Like how the rumor
columnists constantly spin lies about Byrne. If they aren't making it up, then
they are being fed by people who want JB to fail. PAD back then was
probably the same sort of creature like Rich Johnston and his sort are now:
hangers-on who wouldn't hesistate to do thoughtless, hurtful stuff to
make themselves somehow relevant to comics.
Also, lets not forget the larger issue. When publishers and marketers
try to promote comics by revealing what's going to happen next, ruinous
spoilers are bound to occur. It takes the fun out of comics, and robs
any motivation for writers to create exciting serial fiction.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 29 August 2006 at 4:48pm
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | 4
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"
Regardless, if it was not an act borne out of negative intent, then he was,
in
fact, just doing his job."
So it was his job to be a goddamn fool? Just like he's obediently writing stories for a worthless editorial regime today?
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David Whiteley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 2748
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | 5
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Andrew, Alpha Flight was not Direct Sales. I picked them all up in drug stores too.
What a concept, eh, being able to follow a title by purchasing it at a local drug store...
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Roger Jackson
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Joined: 12 October 2005
Posts: 260
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 6
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Guardian dies?
Can we please get a spoiler lable on this topic for those who haven't read the comic?
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Landry Walker
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2006
Posts: 510
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | 7
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Joe Zhang: "So it was his job to be a goddamn fool?"
No... If you look at John Byrne's own post: "Sales and Marketing did that all the
time."
We're talking policy here then. You only addressed one tiny aspect of my statement. Let's look at the rest: "Was it his job to screen material? Was it his
job to be aware of a major story development that was apparently a
tight-lipped secret? You say it was standard practice for the people in
his
position to waltz in and take artwork for the sake of promotion. Whose
job was it to determine what story elements should or should not be
revealed through said promotion? Who guides the material in this
instance, the editor, or the individuals in marketing. It happened all
the time? It sounds mostly like it was a policy failure."
Look at the situation contextually before you casually dismiss
someone's actions as foolish. It WAS his job. Labeling secret material
as secret was, to the best of knowledge, not. Judging what story
threads might not be suitable for premature dispersion was, to the best
of knowledge, not. What we are discussing seems to be a task best managed by editorial.
Regardless, the business of marketing is a tricky one. You even address this yourself: "When publishers and marketers
try to promote comics by revealing what's going to happen next, ruinous
spoilers are bound to occur. It takes the fun out of comics, and robs
any motivation for writers to create exciting serial fiction."
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 8
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"
Joe: Is that you posting over at Denny O'Neil's board?"
No. I don't even know where the board is.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 29 August 2006 at 5:07pm
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Matthew McCallum
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 9
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L. Walker, this wouldn't be an issue if PAD dealt with this business in a sympathetic manner. It's the "What's his problem?" approach that is unfortunate.
If I run over your dog, my saying things like "it's something that happens all the time, the dog ran into my path, it's your parent's fault for not have a fence on the property so that the dog wouldn't get loose in the first place" -- which are all true, I might add -- is not going to win me much sympathy from you. You're going to be pretty upset about the dog.
Can you understand that JB might be upset about his dog?
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6551
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 10
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"Landry Walker": Look at the situation contextually before you casually dismiss
someone's actions as foolish. It WAS his job.
***
Context: a marketing build up asked readers: "which one will die?" PAD revealed to people the answer, thus ruining that marketing. His boss said he didn't permit PAD to do this, yet witnesses confirm it happened.
Stop dancing around trying to act like you have light to shed on these events-- you can't seem to digest the simplest part of it.
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Landry Walker
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 11
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Matthew McCallum: "L. Walker, this wouldn't be an issue if PAD dealt with this business
in a sympathetic manner. It's the "What's his problem?" approach that
is unfortunate.
If I run over your dog, my saying things like "it's something that
happens all the time, the dog ran into my path, it's your parent's
fault for not have a fence on the property so that the dog wouldn't get
loose in the first place" -- which are all true, I might add -- is not
going to win me much sympathy from you. You're going to be pretty upset
about the dog.
Can you understand that JB might be upset about his dog?"
I completely understand why John Byrne is upset. I would be too in
his position. What I'm pointing out is that his anger seems oddly
directed. Why should Peter David be contrite about a scenario that
should have been stopped by editorial? The policies of Marvel to allow
the marketing department to simply sift through artwork in search of
something they deem useful is irresponsible at best. John Byrne pointed
out that this was a standard practice. How is the guy in marketing
supposed to know how relevant this particular bit of story would be?
That's not his job. That's editorial. So angry, sure. But target those
appropriate. And barring some of the crucial information I've been
asking for, I don't see how blaming Peter David is appropriate.
regardless of the validity of Peter David's claims about permission
being granted. True or not, the responsible party still would be
editorial, for allowing the practice in the first place.
Furthermore, we have mixed accounts over Peter David's response to the
accusation. We have no idea how sympathetic he might have been 22 years
ago when the issue was fresh. We do have a definitive account that
Byrne responded aggressively. And whether sympathy is justified or not,
most people will fail to be particularly sympathetic after publicly
being unloaded on, regardless of culpability. Now, it's over two
decades later, and the accusations that Peter David was the responsible
party for spoiling this comic books ending are still flying. After 22
years, your dog would be dead anyway.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
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| Posted: 29 August 2006 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 12
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Andrew, Alpha Flight was not Direct Sales. I picked
them all up in drug stores too.
What a concept, eh, being able to follow a title by
purchasing it at a local drug store...
Thanks for the information. I didn't have to deal with
spoilers or advance solicitations until about 1990,
when Kimmel's Pharmacy closed down and the
pharmacy that moved in decided to rack greeting
cards instead (all in all, I must have had a pretty
great childhood, since that still ranks as one of the
most traumatic things that happened to me by the
time I was in my early teens). I gave up on the
advance solicits once I went to college and had
access to a comic shop on a weekly basis, and only
had things like "Superman's getting married" or
other headline-grabbing events spoiled for me.
It's a letdown not being surprised by creative team
changes anymore, but then again, it's nice to know
when a favorite writer or artist is going to be working
on a book so that you can make sure you don't miss
it when it comes out. With all of the cover artists who
don't draw the interiors (and with the large number of
them who provide one-size-fits-all poster images for
the covers), it's useful to know that your favorite artist
or writer is jumping on board with a particular issue.
I was a lot more likely to grab any random Marvel or
DC comic off the rack during a slow week when they
were 75 cents a pop than I am with the
3-bucks-and-up prices today, and good Internet
reaction to a creator can definitely convince me to try
a book that I wouldn't have even seen at my local
shop otherwise.
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