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Topic: Morrison on Batman (and Frank Miller) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Matt Timson
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 1  

"I invite anyone who wants to to "go after" me -- provided they limit their
arsenal to the truth"

Okeydokey.

JB amusingly writes:

"I was never sure why you had us dress up as superheroes anyway,
professor. We'd much rather wear this cool leather-fetish stuff. Do you
like my shoes?"

I'll counter with:

Malice, Mistress of Hate.

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David Whiteley
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 11:50am | IP Logged | 2  

Wasn't Malice's outfit was the result of Sue being manipulated by Hate-Monger and Psycho-Man? It reflected a dark, dominant, destructive version of Sue.

Did he influence the "New X-Men" too?

edited to add Psycho-Man - it's been a while since I read those issues.


Edited by David Whiteley on 27 August 2006 at 11:53am
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Matt Timson
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 11:56am | IP Logged | 3  

It's a friendly dig at the writer, not the story.
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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 4  

The Malice/Hate Monger arc is my favorite of the Byrne run. Excepted some Lee/Kirby there's no FF stories that i love this much.
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Martin Redmond
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 12:08pm | IP Logged | 5  

Hurgh! Kitty's fingers are all the same lenght. That artist probably took 3 days to do that page and he didn't even at least reference the hands..
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Wes Wescovich
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 6  

"Friendly dig", like "friendly fire", is a contradiciton of terms. 

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Chad Carter
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 7  

 

I know a comic book guy who's 36, little older than myself, who reviles Frank Miller for what he "did" to Batman. Miller's the poster boy for the 30-plus fan who's watched Batman turn into a psychotic. And it's hogwash to lay it at Miller's feet.

Miller didn't "do" anything to Batman. Except come up with a brilliant postulated "alternate" future story in DKR and then referencing that redemption in BATMAN YEAR ONE by detailing Wayne's obsession and defining once and for all Jim Gordon as integral to Wayne's "humanity" as Batman.

But Miller's work on the two (and I don't know how BATMAN YO fits into continuity if at all anymore), was NOT designed as bookends to the Batman we know. DKR was more or less the first unofficial "Elseworlds" tale (actually a DC convention for decades prior), while BYO was post-CRISIS rebooting (I think). What was done immediately after Miller didn't reek of the "grim and gritty". Tonally Batman might have changed somewhat, his adventures were certainly more "life and death", but really THE KILLING JOKE and DEATH IN THE FAMILY may have done more harm than DKR. The gradual darkening of the Batman's world became pure obsidian in five to ten years, resulting more from Tim Burton's gloomy rubberized dildo Batman movie than anything Miller did. Even if Burton was influenced by DKR, the guy could have cared less about Miller, Batman, Adam West, or Adam West's jock cup. He was making "his" version of Batman. A poor one at that.

So when I'm pointing this out to the friend, the guy still jabs the finger at Miller. Miller took away "his" Batman, the Aparo Batman, the Batman with the yellow oval who had cool stuff on his utility belt.

And sure, I love the yellow oval as well. I love Aparo. But Miller didn't create ninja Batman, or the unbeatable Batman of fanboy wank. I don't know about now, but at that time Miller's Batman was a psychological noir stylization of what already existed. The creators who came along later continued upping the ante, in comics, as comics shifted because of factors outside of Miller's thematic desires. Meanwhile, Timm and Dini seemed to "get" what Miller had postulated, while incorporating the Burton fetish style.

Go back to DKR and it's clear Miller was writing Batman, not "Miller's Batman". Even in DKR, the extremes of the evil, the psychotic violence, the political corruption around Batman IN THE FUTURE (like, not now, and one not even in continuity) force his hand toward extremes himself. This is realized in the "mud fight" issue of DKR...first fight with the brute, Batman fights him as he would have in "our" time, as he would when young, and is nearly ripped to pieces...second fight, he realizes it's a different time, and does what he WOULD NOT HAVE DONE when young, in "our" time. He brutalizes his opponent because it's the only way.

By the time Batman kills the Joker, Miller is setting up the idea that there's no turning back, that it's too late for THIS Batman in MILLER's story, not that that moment was a signal for the comics world to become "dark". Miller was telling a good story, not fundamentally changing the character of Batman in every comic to come after DKR.

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Matt Linton
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | 8  

I don't often do this, but I have to say I agree with every word of that, Chad.  Well said.
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Matt Timson
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 9  

Whatever you say, Wes- let's just call it a dig and be done with it then...
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David Whiteley
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 10  

Chad, didn't the Joker kill himself in DKR? Wasn't killing him a line Bruce couldn't cross?
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 11  

 

Well, Batman breaks his neck, while being stabbed nearly to death. For all intents and purpose, Batman killed the Joker. The Joker merely finishes the job of severing his spinal cord because he believes Batman is going to die with him anyway. I thought the Joker didn't want to live without Batman, but he was probably going to die anyway.

I just realized I don't own DKR anymore. I need to get a copy again.

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Dave Carr
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Posted: 27 August 2006 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 12  

 Chad Carter wrote:
I know a comic book guy who's 36, little older than myself, who reviles Frank Miller for what he "did" to Batman. Miller's the poster boy for the 30-plus fan who's watched Batman turn into a psychotic. And it's hogwash to lay it at Miller's feet.


I agree.  Blaming Miller for Batman is about as pointless as lambasting Grant Morrison for an atmosphere of self-deprecation in comic writing.
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