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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | 1  

I'm with you there, Matt. Perhaps that panel would have been more 'ignorable', if it wasn't used as a springboard for the new "status quo" for Morrison's entire run. A status quo I just didn't care for, at that.
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Rob Spalding
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 2  

I thought Morrison's comments about Miller were a bit tounge-in-cheek.  Having read a couple of interviews with Morrison recently, I think it would be a mistake to take everything he says too seriously, especially when he talks about other creators.
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Ian M. Palmer
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 3  

I sometimes don't know what Grant's going on about, I often enjoy his work a lot, and I keep reading most of what he writes in the hope that one day he'll blow my mind again as he did with The Coyote Gospel.

IMP.

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Wayne Osborne
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | 4  

Okay, I had to go back to town today, so I went by the LCS and picked up
the two Batman issues in question. Color me not so impressed. Aside
from the Gordon/Batman exchange we're talking about, what the hell was
up with how he started the issue. (Everything after this is void if the
complaints I have were explained in the issues previous to Morrison).
Folks complain about how JB often starts in the middle of the action and
nobody has anything to say about a fake Batman shooting Joker in the
face, real Batman arrives, saves Gordon, and I guess takes care of fake
Batman, and then brings Joker down to the paramedics, but proceeds to
throw him in a dumpster when they tell him he's still alive - wtf? All that
seemed pretty damn sloppy to me, and a bit out of character for Batman -
but like I said, if he's wrapping up a previous story, okay; rushed but
okay. And the rest of the issues had spots that didn't really ring true to
me either but I haven't read Batman in a long while so maybe I'm out of
touch with the character. Or maybe the character's just out of touch with
me. I won't be back as I've seen this story (taming and training a troubled
youth) before with Jason Todd.

WO
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Troy Nunis
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 5  

"I thought Morrison's comments about Miller were a bit tounge-in-cheek.  Having read a couple of interviews with Morrison recently, I think it would be a mistake to take everything he says too seriously, especially when he talks about other creators. "

Morrison certainly has a bit of WWE flair in saying bombastic nonsense in interviews, giving voodoo rationals to writing choices, controvercial motivations which have no relivance to the printed stories, etc etc .. but when you talk of other creators, you're dealing with their reputations, which these days is tied hard to their livelyhood - or do think that his "less than serious" jibes at JB's Doom Patrol had no sales effect on it?

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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 6  

Why should I have to be forced to write something
off?  Shouldn't the writer be doing their respective
jobs so that it doesn't come down to me picking and
choosing what to accept or not to accept?  What to
ignore and what to believe?


You're not "forced" to do anything. I had no problem
with the X-Men acting the way they did in Morrison's
run, and didn't get hung up on that bit of dialogue at
all. If that's enough to derail a reader and turn him
off of Morrison's writing, then that's all there is to it,
and nothing's going to win him back. If he's enjoying
it but doesn't care for that description of the
characters or that dialogue coming out of the Beast's
mouth, then he can ignore it.

Most runs of comic books that I've really enjoyed
have at least one issue/scene/panel/conversation
that just doesn't click for me. Maybe the science that
they're using is off, maybe the artist flubbed the
perspective in a panel, maybe a character's speech
pattern is slightly off-model (the Thing sounding
classier than he should, Mister Fantastic or the Black
Panther sounding more casual than he should, etc.),
but that doesn't wreck the total package for me.

Morrison's X-Men was a slightly different approach
and it took a slightly different attitude than normal,
but the plots wouldn't have been out of place in Chris
Claremont's run (and some of them were directly
comparable to Claremont's run). He took the first
movie as a springboard (probably at Marvel's
insistence) and took the book in a sci-fi direction
instead of straight-up superheroics, and if you were
willing to accept that as the new status quo within
Morrison's run, it was a pretty exciting reading
experience.

Everything cycled back around to having the X-Men
wear superhero costumes again (and not
complaining about them) the month after Morrison
left, anyway, so no damage was done that outlived
his tenure on the book. If you didn't like Morrison,
you could have saved your money for three years,
picked up the issue after he left and gotten right back
into the same stuff you liked the issue before he
started (minus an easily-resurrected character or
two, but it's not like that sort of thing hasn't been
undone in comics, either).

I can say with 100% certainty that he is not "the
best superhero comic writer working right now." At
all.  Not even close.


That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. For my
money, he's been the most consistently entertaining
and inventive writer in superhero comics since his
run on X-Men, and was near the top with Animal Man,
Doom Patrol, JLA and Flash. All-Star Superman's
my favorite ongoing superhero title, and I haven't
been this excited about the Batman monthly comic in
years. Ed Brubaker's got the #2 slot right now, and
I'll check out just about anything he writes, too, but
Morrison's really at the top of his game right now.

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Tordel Bach
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | 7  

Fascinating discussion, guys, prompting my first post.

I think there's a plain fact in the observation that Morrison has poked fun
at the concept of superheroes and more specifically their costumes, but I
don't see this as anymore than one aspect of his body of work - looking
at the wider picture, I just don't see that he 'hates' superheroes. It would
be fair to say that he has at times jumped on the 'self-loathing fanboy'
bandwagon to get some cheap laughs out of the 'lookit that guy with his
underwear on over his pants' motif. I just think that there's a lot more to
Morrison's superhero work than this one thing - he's developed and
changed as a writer, and continues to do so, and there's a lot of variability
in there.

I didn't enjoy what Morrison did with the X-Men, but then I haven't
enjoyed anything anyone has done with the X-Men since the late '80s,
including Claremont himself. His work on my beloved Judge Dredd with
(personal dislike of) Millar was the absolute nadir of that character's
1500-issue career, much worse than even Ennis' tenure. I also didn't
think much of Arkham Asylum. I tend to agree that cynicism/reflexive
mockery within superhero books has reallly run its course, and never
really belonged in the mainstream of the industry, outside of standalone
pieces like Watchmen and Dark Knighg Returns.

However... Morrison's 'Zenith' was an affectionate early stab at superhero
writing, where the eponymous anti-hero was a thoroughly unsympathetic
character precisely because of his rejection of 'using his powers for good',
particualrly when compared with a vast array of costumed heroes from
Brirish comics. I thought his 'Bulletteer' was a similarly fond exploration
of the role and value of the costumed hero, and his 'All Star Superman' is
the first Superman book I have ever really looked forward to reading.

In essence, Morrison should be credited with having more than one
approach to the genre over the course of his career.

On a similar note, how is everyone enjoying Matt Wagner's Dark Moon
Batman stuff?


Edited by Tordel Bach on 25 August 2006 at 5:12pm
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Troy Nunis
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | 8  

"I think there's a plain fact in the observation that Morrison has poked fun
at the concept of superheroes and more specifically their costumes, but I
don't see this as anymore than one aspect of his body of work - looking
at the wider picture, I just don't see that he 'hates' superheroes. It would
be fair to say that he has at times jumped on the 'self-loathing fanboy'
bandwagon to get some cheap laughs out of the 'lookit that guy with his
underwear on over his pants' motif. I just think that there's a lot more to
Morrison's superhero work than this one thing - he's developed and
changed as a writer, and continues to do so, and there's a lot of variability
in there."

Just because sometimes Morrison doesn't Mock Superheros doesn't really have a barring for the fact that he HAS in nearly every super-hero project he's done - you can look at his total body of work and size up how good of a writer you feel he is, stand in a vacuum of the printed medium and somehow find him creative - but just saying he does OTHER stuff besides mock superheroes doesn't make mocking them okay.  Sometimes the total thrust of his work is to tear down Superheroes - i.e. the X-Men, or sometimes it's just a bitter pill, i.e. the batman page -- but a LITTLE bit of poison in a Cake, is still a poisoned cake, you can't say "yes, but look at all the cake that isn't poisonous"

btw, I should say Welcome to you -- don't mean to seem hostile just as you walk in the door, so to speak - it just that i was already into the debate 'mode' on this thread.



Edited by Troy Nunis on 25 August 2006 at 5:23pm
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Stanton L. Kushner
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 9  

I for one am quite glad that my parents had unsafe sex.  They were married at the time, much like Batman and Talia were in Son of the Demon (albeit by the rules of Talia's poorly-defined culture), so i'm not quite sure why that's objectionable.

In any event, I have noticed Morrison toss little asides into his superhero work over the years, not always about costumes but in the same vein as the Batman panel reproduced here.  I don't see that as disrespectful; it just tells me that Morrison has a sense of humor about his work.  I guess I can see how it would be off-putting to some, and of course to each his own, but having never met the man I'd have a big problem presuming to know what he thinks.  Seems a lot like mind-reading to me.

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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 6:14pm | IP Logged | 10  

but just saying he does OTHER stuff besides
mock superheroes doesn't make mocking them
okay.


"Mocking" seems a bit strong for what Morrison's
done, though. It's a small fraction of the total
dialogue he's ever written, and it's hardly the
underlying theme to all of his work. There are
definitely creators who've built their entire careers on
deconstructing superheroes and finding twisted,
dark takes on formerly lighthearted characters, but
reading a single issue of JLA, Flash or All-Star
Superman should tell you that Morrison's a
dyed-in-the-wool superhero fan.

Does Blazing Saddles reveal Mel Brooks's contempt
for westerns? Is it possible to be a fan of westerns
and still enjoy Blazing Saddles?
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Jeff Lommel
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | 11  

Does Blazing Saddles reveal Mel Brooks's contempt for westerns? Is it possible to be a fan of westerns and still enjoy Blazing Saddles?

-----------------------

Poor analogy, Mel Brooks is intentionally making parody, where Morrison is actually writing mainstream superheroes.  Having said that, I have not read his entire body of work, so I've not noticed a pattern of "mocking the genre" that others have. He's always been hit or miss with me, but I am really liking this Batman run so far, and I enjoyed most of his JLA run as well.  I see nothing in either of those that suggested he was not taking the characters seriously.  But then, I wasn't looking for it either, I was looking to be entertained.  That X-Men stuff posted earlier?  Yeah, totally agree with what others have said about that, very out of character.  Not this Batman though, I just don't see it.
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Patrick Drury
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | 12  

I almost drew a picture to respond to John's cartoon in my honor - but then I decided that would start a stupid snowball of dumb pictures from everybody and their mother.  So instead, I'll just belabor the chosen analogy.

It's not that I can't see the dog.  It's that it's actually a cat but you keep insisting it's a dog because it has four legs.

I've seen a lot more material out of Morrison (work and interviews) that suggest a love of superheroes than I have that suggests he doesn't like them.

Do you actually read most of Morrison's work and interviews or are you basing your opinion on a few instances?
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