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Patrick Drury Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 December 2005 Posts: 695
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 1
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No worries on my part, Brian. Like I said, the whole argument that Morrison doesn't love superheroes doesn't track with me to begin with.
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Stéphane Garrelie Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 4226
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 2
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Next Wave is great, but Ellis' caricature of Nick Fury trough his Dirk Anger character got so much on my nerves, that i finnally dropped the book.
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John Webster Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Posts: 155
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 3
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Morrison likes superheroes, no doubt about it. The thing is, he's embarassed that he likes them, and that's where you get the little digs and jabs that crop up in his work. He wants to write them, but he can't help putting little things in the work to establish he's "cooler" than the material.
As opposed to Ellis, on the other hand, who does not like superheroes, but enjoys the money they give him (of which he is perfectly up front about I might add, yet no one really seems to care, funny how that works).
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36132
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 4
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I'm not sure "doesn't love superheroes" is the vibe I'm getting, but I do get a "I'm better than what I'm writing" vibe from a lot of his work. That may just be me, but it does track for me the little slams against the conceit and nature of mainstream superheroes that Morrison includes in much of his work. Again, for me, reading his run on X-MEN, it's painfully clear that he didn't like the conceits of the genre at the time or else he wouldn't have written the characters so out of character as to say they felt silly dressing up as superheroes and that they never considered themselves superheroes to begin with. Before you lay into me, I read most of that run, not just the panel posted in this thread. The overriding sense that these characters, who have never complained once in their entire publishing history, now all of a sudden decide to "open up" and heave a big sigh of relief that they don't have to wear those silly costumes speaks volumes about the writer and, to me, is more than just a one-off. It's out of character, plain and simple. If you don't see that, not my problem, but I don't think calling Morrison out on things he's done in the past is "going after" anyone, it's just calling 'em like you see 'em.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133711
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 5
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Like I said, the whole argument that Morrison doesn't
love superheroes doesn't track with me to begin
with.
***
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3121
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | 6
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I stopped reading NEXTWAVE when I realized I could get every joke for free on his message board.
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Matthew Hansel Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3469
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 7
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I love your "humor" style, JB...I think you may have missed your true calling.
MPH
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | 8
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I think that Grant Morrison's the best superhero
comic writer working right now, and wish that we had
a lot more writers with his imagination and respect
for the material in the industry today. All-Star
Superman, JLA, The Flash, Marvel Boy, Doom Patrol,
X-Men, Seven Soldiers...his track record of fun,
inventive superhero stories is pretty impressive, and
a bit of tongue-in-cheek dialogue here and there isn't
enough to stick him in the "this stuff is for losers"
camp. If the trade-off is one panel of
easily-ignored-if-you-don't-choose-to-get-hung-up-
on-it dialogue for every 15 issues of superhero
action, that seems like a fair trade.
A good comic's a good comic. I think NextWave's a
blast, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying
Roger Stern's Avengers or Jack Kirby's Machine Man.
Roger Langridge's Fin Fang Four doesn't make JB &
Paul Ryan's Fin Fang Foom saga any less
enjoyable. Morrison's writing the Batman that most
people on the board have been clamoring to read for
years, and it's too bad that people are going to be
passing it up based one bit of (completely in
character within the context of the scene) dialogue.
Edited by Andrew W. Farago on 25 August 2006 at 4:39pm
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36132
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 9
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Although I'm liking two books Morrison is doing right now, a first for me as I haven't liked anything he's done (and trust me, I've tried) since his early ANIMAL MAN issues, I can say with 100% certainty that he is not "the best superhero comic writer working right now." At all. Not even close.
Andrew W. Farago wrote:
If the trade-off is one panel of easily-ignored-if-you-don't-choose-to-get-hung-up-o n-it dialogue for every 15 issues of superhero action, that seems like a fair trade. |
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By definition, a writer and a story can't be good if the characters have to be written off-model for it to work. His run on X-MEN is rife with that kind of stuff, not just the panel posted in this thread. I don't consider it a "fair trade" to get a couple of years worth of stories with the characters written so off-model as to a) not consider themselves superheroes, and b) to consider the costumes/uniforms they've been wearing their whole publishing career as "silly". That's a commentary by the writer as expressed through the characters he's writing, not the other way 'round. That they would never, in a million years, say something like that or believe the way Morrison would have them believe, isn't a "fair trade" at all. It's having to push aside who the characters really are in order to enjoy the work that Morrison is doing. That's not good writing and that's certainly not the mark of a good superhero writer. That I see a pattern like this in his writing, not just one time, not just on specific characters, but through quite a bit of his superhero work, leads me to believe that it's not written just for me to write off if I so choose.** It's an expression of belief that has its outlet through his work, no matter if it's one panel or an entire story.
**Why should I have to be forced to write something off? Shouldn't the writer be doing their respective jobs so that it doesn't come down to me picking and choosing what to accept or not to accept? What to ignore and what to believe?
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Jason Powell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 429
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 10
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"I remember that one coming up, I couldn't believe
how many people just blindly begin quoting it (kind of
like "JMS' Spider-Man is the best run ever!!!"). I
NEVER heard people saying that nonsense before
Morrison wrote that. There are even people now
claiming that Claremont didn't really "get" the X-Men
because he wrote so many stories with the Savage
Land, and alternate realities, and aliens, and time
travel; instead of telling stories about "racism".
Overlooking the fact that when you see the X-Men act
as superheroes, they're "protecting a world that fears
and hates them"."
Well-said, Gene ... this bugs me too. First and
foremost, X-Men is an adventure comic. The mutant
angle does give it its distinct identity, but it was
always about superheroes having adventures,
fighting villains, etc.
I've not read the Morrison run. (For my part, I haven't
read enough Morrison to even have an opinion of his
writing, but everytime I've even cracked a Morrison
comic open in the store just to get a sampling, I've
been turned off by the artwork. A friend of mine
adores Frank Quitely, but I just don't see the appeal,
and the fill-in art on New X-Men when Quitely wasn't
there just looked awful. But I digress.) But I love the
Claremont run, and he had a fine balance of
superheroic adventure mixed with the occasional
prejudice-themed stories, and he always reminded
readers that Xavier's dream of mutants being
accepted was the reason the X-Men kept fighting.
My same friend once enthused to me about
Morrison's New X-Men, and I remember very vividly
his choice of words: "Morrison is taking the X-Men
way further than Claremont ever did!" That's rankled
me ever since (although I still love the guy, of
course!).
For all I know, Morrison's X-Men work is really great.
But when I see people online praising Morrison by
denigrating Claremont, it always burns me. When
you have to tear down somebody else to build your
guy up...
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36132
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | 11
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Another thing: I don't think you can just ignore something a writer has a character say because even if it's a panel, it informs the way the writer is approaching the characters he/she is writing. In the case of NEW X-MEN, because it is written so out of character, it's a clue as to how that specific writer believes the characters think and/or choses to ignore what they would actually say in order to make a personal expression. It's not getting "hung up" on one panel, but rather it's understanding from that one panel the prism through which the writer is looking. Morrison, in NEW X-MEN, chose to take the path that the characters weren't superheroes (which they always have been) as well as the characters thinking that their costumes have always been silly. Sorry, but that single panel informs the way Morrison wrote his run. You can't not ignore it...unless you're doing so intentionally in order to enjoy his work on the title. In that case, it's bad writing 101.
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Mark McKay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2265
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Posted: 25 August 2006 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | 12
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I want to point out here that when it was announced that JB was going to be working on Doom Patrol, Grant Morrison had no problem taking a swipe at JB.
Not to mention the swipe he takes at Frank Miller in the article linked to that started this thread.
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