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Stephen Robinson
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 1
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(2) You think the civilian guise is much more interesting than the superhero.
*****************
I can't go on record with this, but I recall the first sign of this problem back in the late '80s in which there was an issue of FLASH in which Wally doesn't appear in costume (save for one panel and he's not doing anything particularly heroic). The fans wrote in loving this development. Uh-uh.
I also recall issues of GREEN ARROW (Mike Grell's run) in which any guest appearance by a superhero (Green Lantern, for example) had to be in the civilian identity because that would ruin the "realism" of the story.
"Realism" is often a mask for "I'm embarrassed by this genre". I recall an interview in which JB said basically the question to ask is "Would people in the real world behave this way if placed in such a situation"? This was in response, I think, to the storyline in which Jarvis turned on the Avengers in order to make money to pay for his mother's operation -- rather than asking for the money from the many millionaires with whom he works.
I guess it always comes down to "realism of character and plot development" is more important than "realism that lessens the fantastic nature of the world in which the characters live." The conceit is that it makes perfect sense to put on a costume to fight crime. If you need to explain why someone does that (through a four-issue story arc), you're in trouble.
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Thomas Mets
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Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 898
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 9:44am | IP Logged | 2
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(1) You come from screen writing, and think writing comics is just the same.
(2) You think the civilian guise is much more interesting than the superhero.
(4) You think being assigned to a long established title is an automatic mandate to blow everything up and start over.
********************************************************** **
I think there are a few exceptions to #2. I can understand why someone
thinks Matt Murdock (blind lawyer who can use his enhanced senses to
tell if a witness is lying, or which way the jury will vote) is more
interesting than Daredevil, or why T'Challa (king of a technologically
superior African nation) is more interesting than Black Panther.
There should be a speical section of hell for any writer who justifies
#4 by invoking a superior creative run (ie- the Dark Phoenix saga, Born
Again) when your own result is below-average.
The strange thing about #10 is that there have been some good superhero
stories by people who hate the medium. The best examples that come to
mind are Garth Ennis's Hitman issue guest-starring Superman, and a lot
of Ellis's work.
I'd add a few economic rules.
You take over a book, and sales drop.
You may have commitments preventing you from writing the scripts
on-time. My stance on late books changed a bit when I saw the numbers
for Spider-Man/ Black Cat #4. When the book was resolicited three years
late, orders were ten thousand copies less for the same issue.
And I think there should be some quality rules.
You think you're owed a superhero book because you know that you're
better than average/ the worst crap produced on the market (in which
case, you usually aren't, or another creator can do a better job.)
You like repeating the stories/ scenes better creators have told (never
mind that a lot of your readers have already read those stories in
trade paperbacks.)
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Bill Wiist
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Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1555
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 3
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This Top Ten List should be given to every editor, JB.
EXACTLY on the the money.
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David Suiter
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Joined: 20 February 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 428
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 4
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JB Said: "Gee -- do we have to go to Superman now? I was enjoying what Clark was doing!"
Reading the Stan Lee and John Romita Amazing Spider-Man stories I often am sad when Peter becomes Spider-Man. I love the interaction with Gwen and MJ and the rest of the supporters. It is so fun. But I loved Spider-Man beating up the Shocker too.
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John Benson
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Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1070
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 5
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How many writers are ten for ten?
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Eric Lund
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Joined: 15 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2074
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 6
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The Civilian guise is NEVER more interesting than the superhero one...
The death knoll of superhero books was one they became all talking heads in civilian garb...effectively lame ass Soap Operas and lame ass and Soap Opera are redundant terms anyways...
If a comicbook does not have two or more characters duking it out or firing lasers or gizmos at one another it is not a superhero comicbook and if you think superhero comics shouldn't be about action and superpowers and magic and gadgets and fights than you should not be reading them at all...
The Hulk was cool because he beat the piss out of everything NOT because he served as PAD's sounding board. Read Hulk from 195-224 some of the coolest stuff ever and the Hulk is beating the crap outta everything...
ACTION COMICS not "mundane comics" started all this out in the '30s... I think people have forgotten that!
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Hugh Cherry
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Joined: 10 September 2004
Posts: 1397
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 7
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The point is, there aren't comics called "the Amazing Peter Parker", or "Adventures of Clark Kent", or "Matt Murdock:Blind Lawyer*". While the Secret ID's are part of the character, and can/should be interesting, but when a person buys a Superman comic, the thrust of the story should BE Superman.
It's like the old Hulk tv show........David's trials and tribulations were good (if not formula) drama, but we all were just waiting for him to get beat up, or threatened by wild dogs, or try to make a phone call with no spare change.
*(Yeah, Stan could probably pull of that title back in the day when we had Night Nurse, Patsy Wlker: Model for Hire, etc)
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Andrew Bitner
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Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7526
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 10:18am | IP Logged | 8
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These points should be the standard chat given from an editor to a new writer.
As for the civilian guise, it should be there to provide contrast-- but the superhero should ALWAYS be much more interesting than the secret identity. Otherwise, we'd be reading about the adventures of Clark Kent, intrepid investigative reporter for the Daily Planet! Or Peter Parker, shutterbug for the Daily Bugle! When the heroes are reduced to supporting players in their own books (or pigeonholed as "crazy" or "boy scout" in terms of their characterization), something's really really wrong.
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Andrew Bitner
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Joined: 01 June 2004
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Posts: 7526
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 9
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Okay, Hugh beat me to it.
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Rob Hewitt
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Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 10:21am | IP Logged | 10
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Reading some old MArvel Masterworks recently, you really often got both. You got a lot of Spider-man action and Peter Parker stuff in one book. Books are stretched out now, so often you don't. They'd do well to get some more panels and story in the book. I was fascinated as a kid by Peter Parker and Spider-man and found them equally interesting (really, I didn't even make a distinction between the two unlike with some guys) and bought the book for both the soap opera stuff and the superheroic action.
Read Avengers King Size Special #1 last night-now there was some action. Great book. Roy Thomas and Don Heck,
Edited by Rob Hewitt on 12 April 2006 at 10:22am
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Tomas Burgos
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Joined: 15 November 2004
Posts: 152
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 11
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(2) You think the civilian guise is much more interesting than the superhero. (5) You think the characters should serve your stories, not the other way 'round.(9) You pepper your stories with "jokes" (usually at the expense of the characters) to amuse your fanboy friends. ***************
These three are the reasons I absolutely hate certain Marvel books published today, books that inexplicably to me, get lots of acclaim... (And God forbid you say anything bad about those books...fans will eat you alive)
Clark should definitely be interesting in his own right, but if he is even as
interesting as Superman, something is amiss. A Superman story should be
read with anticipation of the moment Clark transforms into his super
powered alter ego, not with any chance a reader might think "Gee -- do
we have to go to Superman now? I was enjoying what Clark was doing!" *******************
Amen to that.
Edited by Tomas Burgos on 12 April 2006 at 10:28am
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Patrick McEvoy
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posts: 109
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| Posted: 12 April 2006 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 12
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Thomas wrote:
I think there are a few exceptions to #2. I can understand why someone
thinks Matt Murdock (blind lawyer who can use his enhanced senses to
tell if a witness is lying, or which way the jury will vote) is more
interesting than Daredevil, or why T'Challa (king of a technologically
superior African nation) is more interesting than Black Panther.
----
You make the perfect argument in FAVOR of JB here. Those really ARE good ideas without neededing a superhero attached to them - so why not write a comic about those ideas, written for adults, that doesn't involve, or screw up the superheroes? (And when I say "for adults", I don't mean swearing and sex, I mean conceptually).
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Topic Closed)
