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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35945
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 1
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Perhaps that's true for CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE FALCON, Kurt, but I found the last 1/4 of BLACK PANTHER and all of THE CREW confusing because of the writing. It was a convoluted mess that didn't seem like it was going anywhere at all. It didn't help that Black Panther himself wasn't in the series for much of it, being replaced as he was by a questionable cop. Knowing how that series ended, I kinda wish it didn't get the reprieve it did and ended about 20 issues earlier.
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Jay Matthews
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 2
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I agree with the general sentiment of Priest (and other posts above),
but I think "for the fans" versus "for art's sake" is the wrong
dichotomy. The real tension is between "for the established fans"
versus "for potential new fans."
One of the great things about superhero comic books, which is so
well-established as to become a rule, or convention, is the discovery
of comics during adolescence (possibly as late as college). A small
subset of those young people will go on to enjoy comics as adult fans,
but not enough to sustain the industry.
So write and draw comics that you love and that you think fans will
love. But NEW FANS. Don't mock, condescend, and wink at
your crony fans. Write an awesome story for a 14 year old, with a
decent story (or healthy portion thereof) in each issue.
Trying to please that fan is not pandering, and it in fact is the
highest duty to the character and art form that Priest refers to.
Edited by Jay Matthews on 14 January 2006 at 6:22pm
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Thomas Mets
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 898
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | 3
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The difference is though, that (with very few exceptions) they used their own brand new characters.
*********************************************************
Tell that to the Bucky fans who saw their icon murdered, the Human
Torch fans who saw their favorite android reimagined as a teenage boy,
and the Namor fans who saw him remade into a villain & Atlantis
destroyed.
Stan Lee did more for the Marvel Universe/ superhero comics than any
writer since, or before, but I'm pretty sure he had some very vocal
opponents (outnumbered a hundred to one by very vocal supporters.)
We here are asking the comic companies return to sophisticated,
all-ages stories. Priest is criticizing the adult fans who are
demanding stories be written specifically for them. Thomas, please
criticize what is actually being communicated, instead of what you make
up that you find easier to argue.
********************************************************** **************
I apologize if I offended you. Having Marvel, and DC return to
sophisticated, all-ages stories (at least their superhero universes) is
a good goal, and not the one I was criticizing. I'm thinking more about
the fans who want to see major changes in characters, or who demand
that the books they don't like (regardless of how successful the books
relative to the rest of the market) be cancelled.
Priest is an amazingly good writer, and it really upsets me that he doesn't get the credit he deserves from fans.
For example, a while back the Byrne Victims here were having a
debate on who would be a great writer for Iron Man. At the time, I
suggested that Priest would be perfect for the character, but I don't
think anyone agreed with me.
I would absolutely LOVE to see Priest do Batman, or Iron Man, or ANY
of the major comic characters. He's creative and his stories are
always compelling. Yes, sometimes they are confusing, but I have to
say I think that has more to do with the artists drawing them, rather
than the writer.
********************************************************** **************
I must not have been reading the posts when you suggested Priest on
Iron Man, because it would be a good pick (this is from someone who
enjoyed Iron Man's appearance in Enemy of the State 2.) I'd also love to see a 12 issue run from him on Marvel Knights Spider-Man.
Well, they still make more money on new comics than DC...............
So maybe we should stop with just Quesada bashing and expand it to the guy at DC too!
Since, with the most recognizable comic characters in the world,
they haven't had any success in reaching the "general" audience.
********************************************************** **************
I guess people here don't want to bash the company that hired Byrne.
Either that or they assume that Marvel comics are innately better than
DC comics.
Edited by Thomas Mets on 14 January 2006 at 6:49pm
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Lance Hill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2005
Posts: 991
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
| Tell that to the Bucky fans who saw their icon murdered, the Human Torch fans who saw their favorite android reimagined as a teenage boy, and the Namor fans who saw him remade into a villain & Atlantis destroyed. |
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I wrote "with very few exceptions" in order to avoid this kind of nitpicking. Stan, Jack and Steve reused a handful of characters and concepts from Timely and Atlas comics, but the vast majority of their work was their own new creations.
And Bucky had already been killed off (in a different manner) years before The Avengers #4.
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Emery Calame
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5773
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | 5
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Tell that to the Bucky fans who saw their icon murdered, the Human Torch fans who saw their favorite android reimagined as a teenage boy, and the Namor fans who saw him remade into a villain & Atlantis destroyed.
I believe that "very few exceptions" were very clearly mentioned. Namor was villainous or at least an anti-hero almost from the beginning. That was his schtick. Oddly back then the Atlanteans looked like blue catfish people. Personally I kind of wish they'd bring the Fin back. That was some goofy fun stuff...
By the time of the launch of the Fantastic Four and the Avengers discovery of Captain America I doubt that many fans of Captain America and Bucky or Namor or the original Human Torch were still reading comics. If they were they certainly weren't able to keep their respective comics going through the slump that followed and many say ended the Golden age.
Edited by Emery Calame on 14 January 2006 at 7:04pm
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | 6
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Leave it to Thomas to compare apples to oranges to cow turds. Does he
really think incredible characters like Spider-Man are in any way
comparable to lesser creations like Bucky or Namor?
Look, his entire agenda is to fool us into believing that everything in
comics is so murky and poorly defined that Marvel cannot even be wrong.
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Jay Matthews
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | 7
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Let the nitpicking continue (by me): Marvel's Golden Age comics
were not that popular or well known. We attach great significance
to them now because of what Marvel did in the silver age, but in the
era of Stan/Jack/Steve, these "icons" where something like Charleton
characters in the world of comics.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 8
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You see Mets wants us
to nitpick things with him to death. That's the way he can exhaust all
interest in the argument instead of proving his point.
It's assumed that nobody here is speaking in absolutes. Yet he pulls up
exceptions as if he were contradicting absolute positions.
I think today's Marvel is doing some things better than before. If I
were defending Marvel I would point to those things, not try to muddy
up everything else about comics so Joe Q and his crony factory would
seem somehow less crappy.
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Chris Hutton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 11667
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | 9
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JB opined: And what the fuck is "f****"? An unprintable FIVE letter word?
**************
Field you!
Feast off!
Go flick yourself!
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35945
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | 10
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"Frack" from BSG!
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Chris Hutton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 11667
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | 11
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Of course, in all caps, go flick yourself looks so much better:
GO FLICK YOURSELF
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 10:18pm | IP Logged | 12
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If they were they certainly weren't able to keep their respective comics going through the slump that followed and many say ended the Golden age
****
I know sales data is hard to come by, but the sales slump then-I wonder-was it incredibly higher sales than now anyway? My guess is yes.
Maybe Captain America: Commie Smasher should come back!
When did Cap's shield become uniform with the colors?
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Topic Closed)
