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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12843
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 1
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(for those who may not know, he's a veteran writer who started at Marvel a few years after JB)
From http://phonogram.us/comics/caf.htm
" Pandering to the fans—obsessing night and day with
second-guessing and giving the fans exactly what they want—is always
counter-productive. We should appreciate the fans and reward the fans
whenever we can, but our obligation is to the characters and to the art
form. And, like pursuing a reticent girlfriend, the more you reinvent
yourself to give the fans just what they want, the more jaded the fans can
become, demanding ever more extreme concessions. And the more we moved
towards the fans, appeasing the fans, the farther the industry wandered away
from what it should have been doing all along: preserving the wonderful
legacy for the next generation."
"
These days, fairly few people who can write or draw are in management
positions at the major publishers. The important management positions are
filled by fans and they’ve brought their fan thinking with them. The
obligation to the art form itself seems lost in the shuffle somewhere with
all of the deal making, and the star system has mushroomed out of control to
the point where just being a comics pro isn’t even enough; now you have to
come from television or film just to be taken seriously in comics."
Edited by Joe Zhang on 14 January 2006 at 12:34pm
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Brian Talley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5123
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 2
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Priest knows it, JB knows it, and we know it as well. Unfortunately those in charge still don't know it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 135206
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 3
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They know -- but they are ruled by fear.
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 31698
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 4
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I agree with you guys.
Fear of what, JB?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 135206
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 5
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Failure.
The comicbook industry is trapped in a seemingly
endless cycle of "Well, this worked last time..."
thinking.
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Brian Tait
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1817
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | 6
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Y'know it's a good thing there was no internet, or large fan movements around back in the late fifties.
Because if there were, I don't believe the "silver age" would ever have happened.
Most fans (myself included) don't know what they want or what they're talking about half the time anyway. Give 'em what they want and they'll still say you got it wrong.
Edited by Brian Tait on 14 January 2006 at 1:54pm
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Rick Whiting
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Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2254
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 7
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I agree with evrything Priest,JB,and the rest of you guys said.
I think the comic book industry will finally wake up and smell the coffee after the entire industry crashes and burns.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36425
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 8
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I found this really interesting and well put:
"We should appreciate the fans and reward the fans whenever we can, but our obligation is to the characters and to the art form. And, like pursuing a reticent girlfriend, the more you reinvent yourself to give the fans just what they want, the more jaded the fans can become, demanding ever more extreme concessions."
Even more like a child, no? A child, like the fans Priest is talking about, will ask for something. A parent gives it to them. Then they start pushing the boundaries. They ask for more things, bigger things. Those things tend not to be of the "makes sense" variety, but of the extravagant kind to see just how far they can be pushed. A good parent will put their foot down and say no, thus teaching the child just how far they can go. Publishers should be like this too, no? How many times have we seen creators f**k up a character, push the boundaries if you will, with seemingly no editorial control whatsoever? We could all probably name 100 such scenarios just over the last decade. I know I could. So shouldn't the publisher through its editorial staff act as the parent in these cases? I think the mainstream superhero comic book industry would be a much better place for all concerned if "No" was used more often. Perhaps then some of these creators would get the hint that it's not OK to do anything you want to a character and that, yes, there are boundaries.
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Thomas Mets
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 898
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | 9
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Interesting posts.
Curiously Marvel's run by a guy who can write & draw, and has
gotten acclaim for both (his art on Daredevil, his writing on Iron Man)
and DC's run by a man who can write (I've heard great things about
Legion of Superheroes.)
It's interesting how the fan desire to see characters like Spider-Man
age alongside them is a perfect example of ignoring the "preserving the
legacy for the next generation of fans" job of comic book companies. It
would also be an "extreme concession" one I hope Marvel doesn't take
too far. I wonder how many of the fans here would be criticized for
asking for too much.
Edited by Thomas Mets on 14 January 2006 at 2:38pm
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12843
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | 10
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"I wonder how many of the fans here would be criticized for
asking for too much."
We here are asking the comic companies return to sophisticated,
all-ages stories. Priest is criticizing the adult fans who are
demanding stories be written specifically for them. Thomas, please
criticize what is actually being communicated, instead of what you make
up that you find easier to argue.
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Steve Jones
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 548
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 3:43pm | IP Logged | 11
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Priest names no names so we have no way of knowing if anything he says bears any relation to the truth. It is a familiar rant which may have a small grain of truth in it.
Stan Lee, when he revolutionized superhero comics with Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, didn't do it with the idea of creating a legacy. He did it to make money and do the comics he wanted. I think creators of today should say f**** the legacy, let's do the best comics we can, let's sell as many as we can, let's make as much money as we can and let history decide if anything we did was worthwhile.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36425
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| Posted: 14 January 2006 at 3:45pm | IP Logged | 12
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"...small grain of truth in it"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Riiiiiiiight.
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Topic Closed)
