Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 76 Next >>
Topic: Title Change: Spider-Man Thread (Now with New Costume) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | 1  

The freak accident that injured Stark in the first place
was from the same sort of weaponry that he himself
had been creating and selling to the military, right?
Considering that Spider-Man was on a non-step guilt
trip for decades over the death of one person, it
seemed a little odd to me that Stark never seemed to
put much thought into how many people his
technology killed (he did during Armor Wars, I guess,
but got over it after he stopped Stilt-Man and the
Beetle from using his technology for evil).

If Marvel portrayed him as more of a self-made man
and less of a drunken trust-fund playboy over the
past 25 years, I might have warmed up to the
character a bit more when I first started reading
about him, but that's a pretty big obstacle. Maybe the
right creative team could get me to actually like the
character (as opposed to just liking the occasional
story featuring the character), but he's been more
like a cross between Donald Trump and Donald
Rumsfeld for the past 25 years than the young
Howard Hughes-type character he was when he
was first created.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
James Wright
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1062
Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | 2  

Stark is a bazillionare.  His parents were not gunned down. 

He has no reason to be a hero, and yet he is.  Best superhero ever!!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 3  

The freak accident that injured Stark in the first place
was from the same sort of weaponry that he himself
had been creating and selling to the military, right?
**

So ypou would have a problem with anyone who worked in the defense industry, even the military I would imagine?

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7526
Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | 4  

Tony Stark may lack (or seem to lack) people skills from time to time, but he had a change of heart (irony?) when his own was injured. He created a suit of armor to save himself and escape capture-- then continued using it when he realized that he had larger responsibilities to the world.

In short, he might act like a jerk from time to time but his heart has always been in the right place. He didn't have power thrust upon him; he created the powers he uses. What's less than noble about that?

(Weird coincidence: post 2020, a year well known for... Iron Man 2020! Arno Stark, techno-villain extraordinaire.)



Edited by Andrew Bitner on 12 January 2006 at 9:00pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Roger A Ott II
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5371
Posted: 12 January 2006 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | 5  

Andrew W. Farago: He's got no money problems.

Wrong.  He lost his entire fortune and lived on the streets for an extended period of time.  When he first started Stark Enterprises, he had to take out a loan to keep his company afloat because he'd invested every penny he had at the time just to get the company up and running. Currently, he doesn't have enough money to rebuild Avengers mansion.  Yeah, he's still got more cash than you or I, but that's a different story.

Andrew W. Farago: he's good-looking enough to pick up any woman he wants pretty much at will and discards all of them pretty quickly, too

Wrong.  Bethany Cabe first appeared in IRON MAN #117 and was his girlfriend until she left to take care of her estranged husband in IRON MAN #153.  And she even came back a few times and it was quite obvious that Tony still had deep feelings for her.

Andrew W. Farago: he's his own boss and doesn't really have to answer to anyone unless he feels like it

Yeah.  So?  Tell me you wouldn't like to have that power.

Andrew W. Farago: and he spent the early years of his career figuring out the best ways to blow up random Vietnamese citizens.

Wrong.  Give me some issue numbers where Tony was blowing up random Vietnamese citizens.  He was a military contractor, designing weapons for the military to use against enemy soldiers, not random citizens.  And, in later years, feeling guilty over even that, he stopped producing munitions for the government.

Andrew W. Farago: In the years that I've been reading about the character, he's turned on his teammates multiple times to varying degrees (lying to them, murdering them, and betraying them come to mind)

During the Armor Wars, Tony did indeed lie to his teammates, and admitted that he felt terrible about it, but also felt it was his responsibility to contain his own technology at whatever cost.  To go back to the point of the previous statement further up above, the guilt over the many innocent people that might have been harmed by others using his technology drove him to drastic measures.

Andrew W. Farago: he invented a flying wheelchair and a cure for paralysis and didn't make any real efforts to make them available to the general public

Wrong.  IRON MAN #251, page 8.  The scene is at the newly opened Stark Prosthetics facility, where Curtis Carr (formerly the villain Chemistro) has just shown James Rhodes his new prosthetic leg and is now showing Tony and Rhodey around the place, and he says, "When Tony called and told me he wanted to create a research center for pursuing technologies to aid the physically challenged, I had no idea that he had this kind of commitment to the project."  Then, Carr goes on to explain that Tony's anti-grav chair could be a boon to thousands of the disabled, but the problem is getting the per unit cost down to considerably less than the 2.7 million dollars Tony paid for his.

As for the cure for paralysis, well, that didn't turn out so good in the end, did it? The bio-chip in his spine caused extensive nervous system damage and eventually killed him.

I know none of this probably makes you like the character of Tony Stark more than before, but at least make an effort to know what you're talking about.

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
James Wright
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1062
Posted: 12 January 2006 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | 6  

All that cool stuff, and yet not one good ongoing Iron Man series.  I don't know why I bother to read anything.

A fantastic friggin' character going to waste.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Brett C. Flechaus
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 March 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 851
Posted: 12 January 2006 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | 7  

Nice job on all of the points Roger.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Roger A Ott II
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5371
Posted: 12 January 2006 at 9:19pm | IP Logged | 8  

Andrew W. Farago: Considering that Spider-Man was on a non-step guilt trip for decades over the death of one person, it seemed a little odd to me that Stark never seemed to put much thought into how many people his technology killed.

He did.  After he got out of the munitions business he fought tooth and nail with S.H.I.E.L.D. because they still wanted him to make weapons for them.  Nick Fury went so far as to attempt a hostile takeover of Stark International, but Tony Stark won out in the end (see IRON MAN #129 for details).  And, after the events of the Armor Wars, what he had done haunted him for some time, and he had to work hard to rebuild some of the relationships he'd strained.

Andrew W. Farago: Maybe the right creative team could get me to actually like the character, but he's been more like a cross between Donald Trump and Donald Rumsfeld for the past 25 years than the young Howard Hughes-type character he was when he was first created.

I won't go back so far as 25 years, but the last ten have been mostly crappy characterizations, I'll give you that without a fight.  But, that Howard Hughes-type character you say you might like if he was portrayed that way was the one that created munitions for the military, and weren't you just complaining about that a few lines up?

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Roger A Ott II
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5371
Posted: 12 January 2006 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | 9  

Andrew Bitner: (Weird coincidence: post 2020, a year well known for... Iron Man 2020! Arno Stark, techno-villain extraordinaire.)

I wouldn't really consider him a villain, though.  If you haven't read it yet, check out the IRON MAN 2020 one-shot by Walt Simonson and Bob Wiacek for a more fleshed-out characterization of Arno.  Great story!

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
Posted: 13 January 2006 at 12:24am | IP Logged | 10  

Roger: I've read a lot of Iron Man books, too, but didn't feel the
need to clarify statements like "no money problems" with "other
than that time Denny O'Neil made him drink away his fortune
and start from scratch" (almost did in that first post, but the "no
money" periods are aberrations in Iron Man's history, so I didn't
bother mentioning it), or "can get any woman he wants" with
"occasionally has relationships that last several months at a
time" for the same reason.

As for his munitions background, of course he never designed
landmines or anything with the intention that he was going to
blow up non-combatants, but he still built his fortune on figuring
out the most effective ways to kill large numbers of people.
Nearly getting himself killed by what may well have been one
of his own weapons didn't even deter him from that occupation
right away, which always struck me as a little strange.

Armor Wars is my favorite Iron Man storyline, and it really stood
out at the time since it was a departure from behavior that was
expected of a superhero. Unfortunately, since then, one
creative team after another has written Iron Man as a
manipulative jerk whose philosophy is "the ends justify the
means."

If you want to play the "here's what he said in *this* issue
game"--In Iron Man #251, in the panel right before Rhodey
points out how cost-prohibitive the flying wheelchairs are, Tony
talks about how much money American industry would save if
the handicapped had hover-chairs, since they wouldn't have to
alter buildings anymore to make them wheelchair-accessible.
Rather than taking into account the fact that not every
handicapped person in the world's going to be able to get a
hover-chair, he's already thinking of ways to help property
owners avoid bringing their buildings up to code. You'd think a
guy who had just been paralyzed for several months would be
more sympathetic to the handicapped, wouldn't you? For the
cost of one Iron Man suit, he could probably have given fifty
people hoverchairs, and I'm sure he could have brought the
costs down if he'd put any effort into it.

*****
Rob wrote: So you would have a problem with anyone who
worked in the defense industry, even the military I would
imagine?


Of course not. Stark built his entire fortune on munitions,
though, and got very, very wealthy figuring out ways to
effectively kill people. Stark's got more in common with the
higher-ups at Halliburton than the guys on the front lines, which
makes the pre-accident Stark all the more unsympathetic to me.

I'm not denying that he's a heroic character, or that there's
something extra driving Stark that most people don't have. I
just don't like him much as a person. For what it's worth, the
stuff that I don't like about his personality makes him a really
interesting and intriguing character, and I don't think I'd change
a thing about him (other than getting rid of that time he went
crazy, killed two people, fought the Avengers, died and was
replaced by a teenage version of himself...). Great character,
unlikeable personality.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Brett C. Flechaus
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 March 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 851
Posted: 13 January 2006 at 1:10am | IP Logged | 11  

Andrew, I think you have to go at the intent of the creators a bit more
than you're doing, rather than looking back at 40 years of continuity
in broad sweeps.

I believe that his original potrayal by the Marvel bullpen in the early days,
was that of a noble , munitions  maker, not a military-industrial complex
slimeball.   Remember, this was from a time when it was'nt as hard to
feel that way about someone like Stark.   The scuzzy  munitions maker
is something that you're adding on that was not there.  Re-read your
Essential I.M. if you still disagree.   He is always potrayed as a swell
guy with a bum ticker.

Then, as some younger more left-leaning creators started to work on the
book,they bacame uncomfortable with Stark, based on their own beliefs
and the world around them: Nixon, corporate greed, Vietnam and the
whole bubble bursting on America's perceived innocence.  A weapons
manufacturer seemed a poor profession for their golden hero.  They
wanted to show that Stark was still  just as noble as the previous creators
had  envisioned him.   So they had him conclude that he would scrap
his munitions maker role & switch over to kinder & gentler manufacturing.
A noble act, in and of itself, don't you agree?

As to Stark's potrayal in the last decade or so, I'll agree with you & Roger,
that his flaws are played up as his main traits.   Corporate dick, bad relation-
ships and drinking problem.

As a reader, at the time of Starks 1st bout with booze, it creeped me out
a little, but was done well, over fast, and was only a small part of what
was otherwise the best 3 year period the character has ever had.   As I've
argued before, the heaviest damage was done by the next creative team,
when they they did'nt just revisit the alcoholism, they wallowed in it and
that 3 year period is the one that influenced the people who started reading
when Roger & Rob began.  It became a running gag in the then new Wizard
Magazine which served to ( mis )inform large segments of fandom, who now
came to know the dysfunctional, drunk Iron Man as the real version.   To
this day, Wizard still has gags portrayng Stark as a drunk, when ( Roger,
back me up on this ) he's been sober for??  probably close to 20 years!!


Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36067
Posted: 13 January 2006 at 2:24am | IP Logged | 12  

I find the line of reasoning that demands our heroes have a real-world (in the MU or DCU) impact on their surroundings by virtue of what they do (scientist, doctor, etc.) patently absurd.  Andrew, do you wonder why Reed Richards can create all those wonderful toys, yet hasn't done a thing with them to improve an MU that suspiciously looks the same as our non-superhero world?  How about Hank Pym?  How about Peter Parker?  Do you find them "unlikeable" because they haven't applied their superior intellect, having invented things too numerous to mention, to helping their fellow man?  Or can we accept that these are comic books with the convention being that if we don't want their world to look light years ahead of our own, thus robbing the reader of that identification, then we have to separate the tech they create (hover-chairs, ways to stop heart degeneration, etc.) from it's possible real world application?  I'm really curious why that particular story beat is a sticking point for you.

I'm also curious why you flippantly describe Tony as a man almost eager to find ways to kill non-combatants (which he has never been)


 QUOTE:
...and he spent the early years of his career figuring
out the best ways to blow up random Vietnamese
citizens.

...and then back peddle to say that what you really meant was that you felt a "little strange" he didn't abandon it altogether when he returned from Vietnam.  Two things: 1) It doesn't automatically make him unlikeable, nor a callous man, to be creating what he did during a time a war.  It's only a fairly recent, cynical outlook that would paint every person who creates weapons to defend their country out to be an unlikeable character, 2) yes, those same weapons caused himself great harm, but at the hands of a villain.  That he returned to the US and became a hero, instead of wiping his brow with the thought that he was lucky while sipping champagne, bedding every woman he met and figuring out a way to spend his millions, speaks a lot about the character to me.

Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 76 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login