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Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 1
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JB, did you add stars to punches in your own work in order to make violence more palatable? I noticed it's different from the manga-like impact flash you used to do...
I get the feeling that, eye-eating and face-eating scenes excluded, comics nowadays tend to have less sock'em-rock'em than back in my day...
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Nick Turturro
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 8:51am | IP Logged | 2
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I bought my first comic when I was 12, and it was What If Wolverine was
Lord of the Vampires. In it, many X-Men were bitten/turned by vampires,
Dracula and a vampire Kitty Pride were beheaded, Dr. Strange was
crushed by the Juggernaut, and the Punisher got two fists of adamantium
in the stomach. All pretty violent stuff, and pretty bloody.
Eye-eating and face-eating sound really gross and violent, but in the
issues, neither is actually shown in explicit detail. People could say that
this sort of thing doesn't belong in Spider-Man, that it should be all ages;
but I saw violence comparable to this in my first exposure to comics, so I
don't really think it's inappropriate. It's always been there. When I was 12,
I sure didn't mind seeing that kind of stuff, whether in comics or in horror
movies. I thought it was cool. So while some may think it doesn't belong
in their Spider-Man comics, it's okay if it's in mine.
It seems to me that it comes down to what you grew up with; that thing is
gonna be the bar you measure everything else against. I grew up with
Darkhawk and Sleepwalker too, and no one can convince me those books
aren't cool. I love them! But at the same time, I understand that things
have changed, and they're considered lame to those who came before or
after me. I'm not going to say they're wrong. Everyone has different
tastes. That's why it seems silly to me when people say a comic should be
certain way, or that Spider-Man hasn't really been Spider-Man since the
Lee/Ditko issues or whatever. I've read some of those issues, and I guess
if that's what you grew up with, great. But personally, I'd rather read the
McFarlane/Larsen issues, cos that's the first Spider-Man I knew. It's
different for everyone, so to say yours or mine is the best is silly, and
probably pointless; odds are you're not gonna convince anyone that yours
is better than theirs.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 135409
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 10:34am | IP Logged | 3
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JB, did you add stars to punches in your own work in order to make violence more palatable? **** No.
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Roger A Ott II
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5371
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 4
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Nick Turturro: I grew up with Darkhawk and Sleepwalker too, and no one can convince me those books aren't cool. I love them! But at the same time, I understand that things have changed, and they're considered lame to those who came before or after me.
I predate you by at least ten years as a comic reader, but I liked Darkhawk and Sleepwalker, too. The concepts of both comics were interesting and decently handled as far as I'm concerned.
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Jeff Palm
Byrne Robotics Member
Fake Name
Joined: 18 October 2004
Posts: 634
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 5
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While discussing "The Other" storyline with the owner of the LCS, he said to me "I would like to see a stronger and meaner Spider-man, I would like to see him elevated to Thor class strength."
After a short pause, all I could say was "Wouldn't they have to change the title to Spider-god then?"
I think this story is devisive among the fans. Time will tell what the fallout will be, but I just might stop buying a copy of "The Amazing Spider-man" for the first time since #181. Makes me kind of sad really.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 135409
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 6
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While discussing "The Other" storyline with the owner of the LCS, he said to me "I would like to see a stronger and meaner Spider-man, I would like to see him elevated to Thor class strength."**** Evolutionist Richard Dawkins has often pointed out that if we were to find a way to end hunger, end disease, and bring "peace on Earth", it would not last. In such a peaceful, benign environment the human species would breed like crazy, and it would not take long before the old, unpleasant status quo was restored. Suffering and deprivation are the natural state of things. People who make statements like your LCS guy fail to realize that rules not unlike those of Nature exist in superhero comics. Suppose it was, indeed, decided that Spider-Man should be elevated to the same power levels as Thor. What would this accomplish? Unless his rogues gallery was similarly elevated -- or abandoned in favor of a new, more worthy set of villains -- we'd have some pretty boring stories. A Thor level Spider-Man should be able to take down Doc Ock or the Sandman in no time flat. Should he fight 22 villains per issue (or 20, if we want a couple of pages for "characterization")? This is the kind of thing that seems almost inevitably to happen when certain corners of fandom are themselves elevated (at least in their own minds) by being provided with the bully pulpit of a shop or a blog -- they hold forth on what they would like to see happen with their favorite characters ("Batman could beat Galactus!") and give little thought to what the actual process is all about, ie, producing these books on a montly (more or less) basis. Change the mix too much, and you have an unviable commodity. Make Spider-Man as powerful as Thor and you end up with not Spider-God, but an incomprehensible and unsellable character.
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Steve Horton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3574
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 12:58pm | IP Logged | 7
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Sleepwalker was Sandman done RIGHT!
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 31776
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 8
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Make Spider-Man as powerful as Thor and you end up with not Spider-God, but an incomprehensible and unsellable character.
******************
Kinda like when they turned him into Captain Universe.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4075
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | 9
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The Spider-Man/Captain Universe story was in and
out in about three months, and probably never
intended even for a second in any creative or
editorial meeting to be a long-lasting change.
Ripping out eyeballs and evolving Spider-Man into
something else is probably intended to stick around
a bit longer...
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 31776
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | 10
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You don't think that if, all of a sudden, when he was CU, sales didn't double or triple, that M***** would have kept it going as long as it sold? That is pretty much why the Clone Saga went for as long as it did.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36451
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 11
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Nah. Not with Captain Universe. That's the character's whole shtick, inhabiting the bodies of others. To keep him as Spider-Man would have kind of nullified that. I seriously doubt that CU story was scheduled to go any longer than it did, no matter how much of a rise in sales it may have provided.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4075
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| Posted: 09 December 2005 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 12
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With a three-month long story, though, sales figures
wouldn't have come in until after the story had
wrapped up anyway. The Captain Universe story
was part of Acts of Vengeance, which probably
caused a minor sales increase, and there were
plenty of tie-ins, guest stars and crossover elements
that would have contributed to the increase in
addition to the Captain Universe story.
Maybe modern-day Marvel strikes me as much more
calculating and cynical, but I'll give the late-1980s
editors, creators and publishers enough credit to
realize that a flying, energy-beam-shooting,
super-strong Spider-Man isn't remotely like what the
character should be (marital status and family
relationships are open to debate, but changing him
into Captain Atom Jr. isn't), and that they wouldn't be
able to maintain long-term reader interest in that
version of Spider-Man.
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Topic Closed)
