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Steve Horton Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3574
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | 1
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Tom Servo: We're getting into a whole weird area here, folks.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 135329
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:11pm | IP Logged | 2
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Now, I have a question for JB, with no attempt to be argumentative. Is the Aquaman situation much different from what you did with the Vision in your West Coast Avengers run? You have said in the past that you had an "out" all set up to restore the Vision to his pre-you condition. It sounds as if PAD had a similar "out" planned with Aquaman, but he didn't get to implement it before leaving the book. ***** This, I think, is the point on which discussion such as these invariably turn, and often fall apart. Even the most well intentioned fans tend to look at each character as if they are essentially the same, and each change to each character has essentially the same impact. But let's look at the instance you cite: The first and most obvious difference is that the Vision is not human. He is programmed to act like a human being, and does so very successfully, but there are certain points, certain levels, that he cannot reach. Sometimes this is played as a kind of cute naivety, sometimes as a kind of cold "inhumanity". Whatever it is, he is something other than us. Aquaman, on the other hand, while a mutant, is as human as thee or me. He comes equipped with all the "stuff" that makes a human, and none of it is clever programing (unless we want to take this over to the I.D. thread...) So, what happens to the Vision in my story is, really, nothing. I did, indeed, have a way to restore him, virtually instantaneously. The effect on him -- because of his robotic nature -- would be nil. As if you removed all the data from you hard drive, then put it back. Ask someone who has lost a limb if their loss was anything like that.
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Jason Fulton Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3938
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 3
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I think the only Aquaman I've ever liked has been the Justice League animated version (which at least had a decent explanation for his severed hand - he lost it to save his son).
It's possible I haven't read enough Aquaman. Is DC releasing a Showcase edition of the Ramon Fradona (might be spelled wrong, but the artist that did Metamorpho) run?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 135329
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | 4
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Ramona Fradon.
But close!
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Todd Douglas Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 14 July 2004 Posts: 4101
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | 5
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That might be a greater distinction if we weren't talking about worlds in which, not only is there precedent for wounds being completely healed with no after-effects, and, yes, entire limbs being lost and later regained, not to mention the afterlife itself apparently having a bank of escape pods hidden somewhere.
When even the pearly gates aren't one-way doors, I don't think there's much problem in regaining a lost limb.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 135329
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 6
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That might be a greater distinction if we weren't talking about worlds in which, not only is there precedent for wounds being completely healed with no after-effects, and, yes, entire limbs being lost and later regained, not to mention the afterlife itself apparently having a bank of escape pods hidden somewhere.***** You live in a world in which heart transplants are commonplace. Does that make you worry any less when you feel a twinge in your chest? Lose an arm, and in many cases it can be reattached and returned to full functionality. Does that mean losing an arm would be less of a trauma? Another all too common mistake many fans (and writers) make, is to assume that the world is substantially different over there in the Marvel and DC universes. That the common man operates differently because there are superheroes and aliens and other such things running around. Or that even the superheroes themselves are "different" because of the environment in which they operate. Yet, have we ever seen even the smallest evidence that this is true (Barbara Gordon)? Did we ever see Spider-Man, for instance, decide he didn't need to fret over Aunt May's latest health problems because, hey, if she ever gets too bad, he can always go ask Doctor Strange to do something about it? To head down that road is to lose one of the most fundamental conceits of the superhero mythos -- that the world is ours. That the emotions are ours. That the traumas, the fears, the joys, the apprehensions, the doubts -- the whole rainbow of emotions, is ours. The ones we know. They shouldn't be, but they are. Otherwise, we would have no way to connect to those worlds and those characters.
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Rob Hewitt Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 11 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10182
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 7
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I thought it odd that the Vision was left in the state he was for so long (after JB). It seemed like a situation ripe for a story, but it took a very long time.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 135329
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | 8
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Yet it took about eight seconds to turn my Lockjaw
story into a "practical joke".
Hmm... which writer was it did that...?
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Rob Hewitt Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 11 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10182
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | 9
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I missed both the Lockjaw story and the follow-up.
Do you resent when things like that are done or just accept it as the way things are?
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Todd Douglas Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 14 July 2004 Posts: 4101
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | 10
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It seems, though, that we're talking about two different things here.
The characters in the stories would be the "me" fretting about that chest twinge. Or, in the case of Aquaman, dealing with the loss of the hand.
On the other...urm...hand (no pun intended), we're also talking about what is and isn't feasible in those fictional worlds.
Of course, Peter's still going to worry about Aunt May, because asking Doctor Strange to do something about it isn't an everyday occurrance, despite being something he could do if he so chose. (Now, whether or not doing so would do any good...that's a different matter.)
Likewise, Aquaman wasn't sitting around wondering what extraordinary means he could use to regain his hand.
It seems, in this conversation, the line between the creative process and the immersion in the story is getting blurred. With the changes in the Vision, you went into the story with an "out" to make that change more the illusion mentioned earlier. With the changes to Aquaman, PAD went into the store with an "out" to make that change more the illusion mentioned earlier. In both cases, the writer was removed from the book before the character arcs involving those changes were finished, and other writers went on to continue to use those as the status quo. Fictional mechanical vs. fictional biological doesn't enter into it, as long as those resolutions fit within the framework of the world that's been established.
Despite the differences that the two of you have, I believe you're both alike in that respect, and that you both make every effort to put things back the way you found them when you leave a book. Unfortunately, the proverbial powers that be don't always allow you the opportunity to do so. No harm, no foul.
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Emery Calame Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5773
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 11
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Y'know I never figured out why the Vision was supposedly ruined by being dissasembled.
Stark: "Everything he was...is gone."
Wanda: "Noooooo!!!"
Pym: "Wonder-man? Could step in here for a mintue?"
Simon: "Sure. Waddya need?"
Pym: "We need to copy your ionic brain patterns again. Just slip the ol' helmet on and bite down on this leather wallet."
Simon: "Okey Dokey! Mff F-fef ?"
Bzzzzzt!!!
Simon/Vision: "Ow!" / "Ouchie!"
Pym: "Okay now. Vision do you feel human again?"
Vision. "Yes. I suppose so. But I still don't have my memories back."
Pym: "That's okay. Wanda has a scrap book and home movies and mutant powers that can warp reality easily so you should be fine after a while."
Vision: Groovy.
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Brandon Frye Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 17 November 2004 Posts: 1328
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 6:57pm | IP Logged | 12
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I think a touch of reality (such as the Aunt May / Dr. Strange scenario) is needed, if nothing else, to base the stories in a world at least similar to ours and give readers points of reference to identify with.
The problems start though, when we have things like 9/11 happening in the comics. Unless we are to believe that a Marvel New York, populated by super-powered beings, would have been powerless to stop 9/11 from happening just as it did in the real world (and yes, there were some who actually tried to make this argument).
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