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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 1
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Anyway, per current canon, Dick was 12 when he
became Robin, and Batman was 28...so when Dick
is 26, Batman is...42. Yikes. Then again, Batman did
take a dip in the Lazarus Pit in a story written by
Denny O'Neil in the 1990s, as I recall, so if one really
needs an explanation for Bruce's continued vitality,
there 'tis.
*****
And Lois, and Perry, and Jimmy, and Gordon, and
Alfred, and all the other civilians? Must be a helluva
line waiting to jump in the Pit!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | 2
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Comics has changed such that there is no need to
bring in young readers?
*****
Ludicrous, isn't it? Imagine our closest cousins, the
movies, thinking like this. Disney has been doing
adult-only fare, and nothing else, for fifty years! No
movies are made for teenagers, or anyone younger
than, oh, 40. Movies also play only in art houses,
and if a movie makes a million dollars in its first year
of release it is considered a smash hit.
Uh huh.
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | 3
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Stated as simply as I possibly can: if a character "grows and changes" s/he stops being the character as originally created. Many things have contributed to the decline in comicbook sales over the past few decades, but it cannot be coincidence that the further characters moved from their original, highly successful forms, the worse their books sold.
The books and characters have been increasingly pitched to an aging demographic, of whom there are fewer and fewer every year. Where is the sense in turning Spider-Man -- the ultimate pubescent fantasy -- into Joe Normal, with a wife and kids? What 12 year old wants to read about his parents as superheroes?
*******************************
Exactly. The problem is that aging fans intend on reading these characters "forever." It's not a childhood hobby anymore -- it's a lifestyle. (Heck, when DC has a major event that's a "sequel" to a 20-year-old storyline, you can see the writing on the wall.)
You can't really reason with people who view comics as a lifestyle. Spider-Man could be eternally 17 and kids would usually have moved on by the time they caught on to the fact that there was an "illusion of change."
I've been reading comics for 20 years, as well, but I don't view them as a lifestyle. What I like is the familiarity. Batman is Batman. Superman is Superman. There are legends, myths told in different ways that reflect the times the stories take place -- but they themselves don't age. That's what great about them.
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Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2473
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
Teenagers begin at 13. That Wonder Girl looks a
mite older than that to me. |
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I know. But drawing a "hot" 13 year old Wonder Girl would be kinda pervy, as I said.
QUOTE:
And Lois, and Perry, and Jimmy, and Gordon, and
Alfred, and all the other civilians? Must be a helluva
line waiting to jump in the Pit! |
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Perry and Gordon and Alfred, not that big a problem...Lois and Jimmy,
this is where we start seeing problems...Lois sure doesn't look
forty-something, and Jimmy doesn't look thirty-something (then again,
I'm 32 and have passed for 21, so who knows...)
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Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2473
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 5
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QUOTE:
Heck, when DC has a major event that's a "sequel" to a
20-year-old storyline, you can see the writing on the wall. |
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Depends on where we are when the event is finished. If the result is a
DCU that's more accessible to new readers, it'll have been worth it.
I'd be skeptical ordinarily, but I have faith in Geoff Johns.
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Steve Jones Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 548
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | 6
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In reply to Joe: where do I argue that comics have no need to bring in new readers? From what I understand, comics were in a difficult position in the 80s in that they were being forced off the newstands. The industry reacted to this by ultimately moving to the Direct Market which to some extent solved their immediate problems but also created new ones - most specifically it made it harder for casual readers to get their hands on the books. Still, the Industry had to change and it is now changing or trying to change (albeit on a small scale) so as to correct this problem.
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9704
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 7
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The trick should be to draw a thirteen year old girl who's hot to thirteen
year olds.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6430
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | 8
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Jason Schulman: Depends on where we are when the event is finished. If the result is a
DCU that's more accessible to new readers, it'll have been worth it.
I'd be skeptical ordinarily, but I have faith in Geoff Johns.
***
Using a sequel to a 20 year old event as a marketing gimmick pretty much sums up where the industry is-- regardless of how well it's done.
Many customers know exactly what "Crisis" means because they were around for the first one.
It even seems possible that most customers have been around that long -- could that be true?
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Roger Jackson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 October 2005 Posts: 260
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | 9
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Pertaining to the move from the newstand to the Direct Market.
Just take a look at the comic companies who didn't make the
switch. Dell didn't even make it to late 70s. Harvey started
sputtering out in 1982. Gold Key/Whitman got out of the comic
business in 1984. Disney rarely bothers to publish comics
anymore. Warren is gone. Archie is one of the few survivors
and they're a mere shadow of their former glory.
DC and Marvel looked themselves away in the fortress of the Direct
Market, but they were expanding when everyone else was
contracting. And these days the castle walls are crumbling and
they've frittered away that time by not figuring out a way to get their
product to a mass market.
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Rik Offenberger Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 September 2005 Location: United States Posts: 53
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | 10
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I think the real problem is that when you chase an older and older audience every year, you loose the new readers. And you keep a smaller and smaller portion of the older readers. Soon we will have Superman and Batman in a retirement home stopping the evil teenagers that torment them.
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17699
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 11
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"Fixing" things could be as easy as every book (at the end of its current story arc) being written from that point forward as if the characters had never aged.
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Byron Graham Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 935
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Posted: 06 November 2005 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 12
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Tangentially related experience...
For a couple of years in the late 90s I got into the habit of collecting Achie Comics because they hadn't changed appreciably over the years and because the stories were, for the most part, self-contained. Archie Andrews today is still pretty much the same Archie Andrews of twenty-years ago (or more).
When my daughter is old enough to read, I intend to introduce her to Archie Comics.
Edited by Byron Graham on 06 November 2005 at 5:10pm
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