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John Hays
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: October 18 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 20
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 10:23am | IP Logged | 1
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Legacy Heroes- Heroes who replace or take up a similar role using the name of a previous hero. ***** Then, yes, I am against the concept.
*****
Does that then mean you're against Barry Allen, Wally West, Hal Jordan, Kyle Raynor, etc..? These are all legacy heroes.
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Jim O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: April 12 2005
Posts: 336
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 2
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Barry Allen & Hal Jordan weren't legacy heroes.
As far as they knew, Jay Garrick~ and probably Alan Scott~ were characters in comic books, as was shown in Showcase #4.
The ol' Earth-1/Earth-2 scenario...
Edited by Jim O'Neill on November 09 2005 at 1:11pm
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James C. Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: April 16 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4705
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 3
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Jay Garrick's and Alan Scott's comics had been discontinued. Barry and Hal didn't take over for them. Barry and Hal were new characters with an old name.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: May 11 2005
Posts: 134705
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 4
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Legacy Heroes- Heroes who replace or take up a similar role using the name of a previous hero. ++++ Then, yes, I am against the concept. ++++ Does that then mean you're against Barry Allen, Wally West, Hal Jordan, Kyle Raynor, etc..? These are all legacy heroes. ***** Y'know, as I typed my response (second, above), I thought to myself "No one will be dumb enough to invoke Hal and Barry, as they were something else entirely." Guess I was wrong.
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: May 11 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 5
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Jay Garrick's and Alan Scott's comics had been discontinued.
***
I know what you mean, but so were Barry and Hal's. Barry had been cancelled and Hal's book was effectively cancelled. Still, Barry and Hal did not "grow into the roles." they were new creations based on an old name and theme.
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James C. Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: April 16 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4705
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 6
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Rob Hewitt wrote:
| Hal's book was effectively cancelled. |
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No weaseling, Rob. That run of Green Lantern was not cancelled. Devil's advocacy has its limits.
[Edited to add:]
And you miss the second point: these characters existence didn't depend on the legacy of their predecessors. Both Wally West and Kyle Rayner did.
Edited by James C. Taylor on November 09 2005 at 1:25pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: May 11 2005
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | 7
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Barry Allen was shown reading a Jay Garrick FLASH comic in his first adventure. They were not meant to be part of the same "reality", and not long after were clearly established as being from "parallel universes" via "The Flash of Two Worlds".As defined in the question, Barry -- and by extension Hal, Ray, Katar and Shayera -- cannot be a "legacy hero". (Worth noting that they have been retconned into "lecagy heroes" via CRISIS.)
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John Hays
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: October 18 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 20
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 8
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So let me get this straight.
First you say you don't even know what a legacy hero is, so it has to be defined for you as:
"Legacy Heroes- Heroes who replace or take up a similar role using the name of a previous hero."
You don't seem to have any issue or caveat to that definition, but accept it as is and say "Then I'm against them."
Therefore, by that definition alone, Barry and Hal fit just fine because they take up similar roles using the same name, regardless of whether the knew that or not. I'm talking real world here...it was never specified that the heroes had to know they were replacing anyone or using their name.
Now, however, you start adding all these caveats as you've been doing throughout this thread to justify your initial point.
That doesn't really surprise or bother me, however, because we're all human and I can understand making a point without already having thought of all the ramifications of that point when you were first typing it. What bothers me is that, despite the fact that I've simply asked a straightforward question in a respectful manner, you, the comic book professional, chose to call me dumb instead of simply addressing the issue.
Now you'll say "oh you just came here to troll" or something like that, and that by just being here I asked for insults, but I honestly thought this an interesting thread, and I thought I'd figured out an interesting question to bring to it, but instead I'm attacked because of it, and I don't appreciate it.
I still love your artwork on Man of Steel and even Action comics, but I lose a lot of respect for you when you attack me like that.
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James C. Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: April 16 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4705
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 9
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How about I say you're a troll?
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: May 11 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 10
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Look, for Tim Drake to be Robin, or Wally West to be Flash, Dick and Wally had to grow up and change.
This changed what would be around for other generations of comic fans to read about, set in motion inconsistencies (where some characters like Wally age but Batman does not), and encouraged the idea that time is passing for these characters. Thus Tim Drake must outgrow Robin as well, and then we still need a Robin so there is a new Robin.
So then Batman is like 30, Tim Drake is 20 because he outgrew Robin, so Dick has to be 26, and then Batman was 16 when he had a 12 year old Robin in Dick.
With Hal and Barry you didn;t have that-pre-crisis anyway. They did not grow into the role or take over.
Edited by Rob Hewitt on November 09 2005 at 1:43pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: May 11 2005
Posts: 134705
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 11
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I still love your artwork on Man of Steel and even
Action comics, but I lose a lot of respect for you when
you attack me like that.
*****
Fuck off, John.
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: June 01 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7562
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| Posted: November 09 2005 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | 12
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Let's be clear on the sequence of events here.
A term-- "legacy hero"-- is used and not defined. A quick definition is given and JB says that he does not prefer such (I paraphrase, please correct me if I'm off the mark). Then the definition is tested by the invocation of Golden Age versions of the Flash, Green Lantern, et al. JB notes that these fall outside the purview of the previous definition... and... here we are?
The "legacy heroes" described above (e.g., Wally, Kyle, Connor, etc.) are characters who took over the name (and usually the abilities) of the namesake hero as successors, following an in-continuity death/retirement/displacement to Limbo X. Barry, Hal and Ray Palmer (yeah, him too) took up the names of previous characters but (IIRC) the Golden Age books they came from had gone out of print and the names/characters were infrequently used if at all. Julius Schwartz picked up the names DC owned and created new characters with them.
Not the same thing, not by a long shot.
John H., let's clarify our definitions a bit before getting upset at a response, okay?
Again, anyone here, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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