Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 28 Next >>
Topic: "Growth and Change" (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17699
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 1  

But... but... if he remains in his late twenties (or early thirties) then where is the all-important "change" that pro-agers crave?  Won't he need to continue to age for this to be achieved?

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:23am | IP Logged | 2  

I was going to write about how when I first "met" Peter Parker he was already in college, blah,blah,blah...but, my mind shifted back to when I was twelve, and I realized the problem is that back THEN the focus of the stories was in the FIGHTS, the POWERS, the ACTION. 

Every once in a while there would be a story that brought about "change" or "growth", like the death of Gwen Stacy, Elektra, Phoenix.  But that was not why we were reading comics.  

I enjoyed  reading comics because I liked to see a Neal Adams punch and a Gil Kane punch and Ross Andru's Spider-man hanging upside down, and Keith Pollard's awesome fights, and John Byrne was the guy who did the best speed lines and drew the best clenched fists. And Wolverine--alone? And the Kree-Skrull war was all about the Avengers trashing Mandroids and Ant-man evading really cool android anti-bodies.  And Green Lantern having to fight fisticuffs in the mining town, 'cause the ring won't protect him no more? Miller made Elektra dance the death dance with Bullseye and I can see in my mind's eye each panel of that fight.  What about when DD got caught in a bear-trap?  And Ben Urich got stabbed? (same issue!!!) I couldn't put down those comics!  I read that stuff over and over.  

Now, it's soap opera time and comics are supposed to sell based on "growth" and "change".  Let's see the illegitimate children of super-heroes?  The result is talking heads panels and CNN Screen panels and story decompression.    All this ties into the "not thinking visually discussion.To write this kind of stuff for super-heroes is to play against all the strengths of the medium.   

Kirby and Adams and Byrne and Miller share the ability to really immerse you in the world they create because they really take it seriously (too seriously in Kirby's solo work, it often seemed to me).  Nowadays, the characters are looked at from the outside. There's this academic stance, this cleverness, this distance from the characters. "Hot" creator aren't writing the characters, they seem to be  writing "about" the characters. 

Back to Top profile | search
 
Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17699
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 3  

I think it was JB who established that the older Superman becomes the slower he ages.  This is an idea that's being used for Invincible and his father as well. 

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 4  

Spider-man is in his 20s.  I wouldn't start doing stories where he asks for a senior discount quite yet,

*****

It never ceases to amaze me that people can say things like this with a straight face. Peter Parker was three years older than me, when I first "met" him. That means in real time he will be 60 in two years. Of course, he isn't 60 in the comics, because of "Marvel Time" --- yet so often it is those same people who insist on complex mathermatical scales for calculating the ages of the characters, who insist that there must be "growth and change" and that characters who remain frozen in time are not "realistic" and quickly become "stale".

The inherent contradiction is apparently lost on some people!

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 5  

To a kid it's not just about to see "how a character became an adult", it is more about "how it is to be an adult".

*****

So you think that a kid should learn that as an adult you should constantly place yourself and your loved ones in jeopardy while you shirk the real responsibilites of adulthood?

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 6  

I think it was JB who established that the older
Superman becomes the slower he ages.

****

Only in the "Generations Universe".
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 7  

There are kids out there who do like to see super-heroes resembling their
parents. That's part of what made The Incredibles so endearing to kids and
their parents alike. That said, super-heroes who are like your parents
should have been created to be like your parents in the first place, and
super-heroes created to be like the kids should stay like the kids.

Spider-Man was in the second category, and he ought to have stayed that
way. I'm hopeful that Ultimate Spider-Man won't repeat the same mistake.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 8  

I'm hopeful that Ultimate Spider-Man won't repeat the
same mistake.

******


If they do, it will take them 5000 issues, anway.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 9  

Lance Hill wrote: But what about growth an change?

I think that in an adult character you can add depth and maturity without aging him. In a teen thats more problematic.

a good exemple is Miller's DD in Born Again: Matt become more mature, but he doesn't ages.

That's too how I understand JB's "the FF didn't age a day during my run" when we clearly see a more adult Sue than ever before and a deeper Alicia. 

Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35950
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 10  

But did either Sue or Alicia "age" in any real sense, Stephane?   Did they age as Peter Parker has aged?  No.  They did not, so your example about how they "aged" during JB's run really has no merit. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:52am | IP Logged | 11  

I don't say they aged I say that during John Byrne's run Sue became more mature, even if there was already some maturity added to the character by previous writers.

We see that she have lived if not aged since the Lee/Kirby run. (of course you could say it's because of the image and role of the woman in the society changed, but i think we can look at that like being maturity too)

And Johnny who was a teen became adult.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6431
Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 12  

Matt Reed: But did either Sue or Alicia "age" in any real sense, Stephane?   Did they age as Peter Parker has aged?  No.  They did not, so your example about how they "aged" during JB's run really has no merit. 

***

Or, put another way, it proves the opposite point-- meaningful growth does occur in a positive way in comics, it just has nothing to do with "aging". 

Peter Parker went through arc after arc of hard lessons in his first 100 issues.  But after he went to college, his age stopped.  When did it become important to age him?  When the fans-turned-pro got ahold of him.

But real growth, like the development JB added to Invisible Woman or, dare I say, to Wolverine is what good comic book writing is really about.  Make the character better, more interesting, more heroic, more in danger personally and therefor more courageous.  Adding birthdays is just destructive and panders to a mentality that should be ignored.
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 28 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login