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Topic: "Growth and Change" (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 1  

There is a myth in certain vocal parts of fandom, to the effect that in order for characters to remain viable, they must be allowed to "grow". Peter Parker must graduate high school, and then university. He must marry. He must have a kid (even if it does not survive). The X-Men must pass beyond their tumultuous teenage years, and also marry, spawn -- go thru, in other words, the changes that are happened to the aging readers, who lack the fortunate happenstance of being fictional, and therefore timeless characters.

But I called this a myth, and myth it is. As I sat at my drawing board a moment or so ago, reviewing today's completed pages, I looked up and across the room at the shelf that holds all (or almost all) of the Batman collectibles I have accumulated over the years, mostly via the Warner Store. Most prominent among these is the 2 ft tall figure of a Carmine Infantion style "Silver Age" Batman. He stands not far from a similar sized representation of a Curt Swan Superman of the same vintage. Like the Batman figure, the Superman figure is surrounded by smaller statues, showing different periods of his long history.

This is what proves that the notion of "growth" is a myth. Superman and Batman of the Silver Age only superficially resembled the characters created at the dawn of the Golden Age. When first introduced, both were vigilantes with no hesitation about killing bad guys. Superman was even portrayed as seeming to take a somewhat sadistic delight in coming up with particularly nasty deaths -- tossing bad guys into airplane propellors, and like that. Batman killed, and also casually violated what we could today call the civil liberties of the villains he chased. Yet, by the time I was introduced to these characters, less than 20 years after their "births", both had mellowed to the point of being almost unrecognizable, when compared to their beginnings. Both were deputized members of their respective cities' police forces, for instance.

What is significant, is that both -- along with other characters, such as Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman, etc -- were adapting to the world in which they lived. Superman in the 1950s reflected the world of the 1950s. Batman did the same, and the same again for the 1960s. Yet none of these characters adapted thru what we would today call "growth". None of the characters were seen to age in any visible way, for instance. Robin was introduced, aged 10, in 1940, and if he was a day older when I "met" him in 1956, he did not show it. Jimmy Olsen was eternaly youthful, and Perry White crept no closer to retirement age.

What changed, then? What made it seem "necessary" that these character not merely respond to the changing world as fictional characters had for years -- James Bond was just a few years short of retirement age when introduced in "Casino Royale", but this was never mentioned again as his series of books grew longer and longer -- but actually change the way we mere mortals do, by getting older and experiencing dramatic, life altering events in their chronicles?

First, there was a distinct change in the readership. Younger fans began to drop away as the 70s approached, and seeing this the companied -- without even realizing it at first -- began tailoring their product for an older audience. Stan Lee and his cronies at the embryonic Marvel Comics clearly had an older audience in mind, tho Stan was savvy enough to layer his tales so that kids could still find a way into the adventures of Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four. (Stan, in fact, tapped a subtle and brilliant gold mine when he elected to make many of his new characters "kids" themselves, mythical teenagers who, mostly, battled older villains. No accident that the teenaged Spider-Man fought people two and three times (and more!) his age, in the form of Doctor Octopus, or the Vulture, or the Sandman. No mere chance that the X-Men, teenagers all, battled a "brotherhood" of badguys all of whom were, as originally portrayed, older than them.*)

Next came the influx of fans-turned-pro, who brought with them, often in excess, the thinking they'd had when readers, seeking now as the creators to answer the questions they used to ask. Questions which, traditionally, had been neither asked nor answered.

It the early part of the 1970s we began to see this distinct sea change pick up speed. The lives of the characters began to unfold before our eyes in something very close to "real time" -- and sales, which had been dropping slowly but steadily for many yeas, began to drop even faster. Is it just a coincidence that the more "growth and change" the books contained, the lower the sales they commanded? Is there a direct connection between the "growth" in characters and the loss of readership? After all, a college age Peter Parker is not the guy I "met" in 1963, and he would not "speak" to a thirteen year old as the guy in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1 spoke to me. A married-with-children Parker speaks even less to a young audience.

Superman, Batman and the rest appealed to large audiences (tho Batman's comics did not sell as well as Superman's, despite the number of readers who claimed him as their "favorite") for decades, changing to keep up with the times, as far as fashions, cars, politcs, and general story themes -- but not changing themselves. Not until those fans-turned-pro began making more and more of the decisions. Then Robin aged almost overnight and got shipped off to college. That was one foot on the banana peel.

It is almost (tho not entirely) impossible to un-ring this particular bell. But it is, I think, important to keep in focus one simple fact: when the characters "grow and change" they run a very real risk of losing whatever it was that made them popular in the first place.



* I've noted elsewhere that Stan may have been pursuing this theme when he established in the first issue of X-MEN that Xavier was, at most, in his early 20s.

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 8:54pm | IP Logged | 2  

Good point and tragically accurate.  The concept of "growing" became part of the packaging at a certain point -- though I think it was introduced as the "illusion of change" and later became more actual.  At some point, Marvel started acting like each new story was part of a chronicle-- and watching continuity became important.  Even though I was actively into comics for a (relatively) short time, I eagerly wanted to memorize all the adventures that came before the point where I started reading X-Men.  I believed they all added up to one big story.

The comics fostered this attitude.  The beefier Cyclops, the tone with which the "original X-Men" were discussed as a thing of the past, the way the "New" X-Men resented Xavier's teaching all played to this illusion of change-- feeding a desire to see more.  Knowing continuity, knowing how things changed since the "first appearance" of the team implied you were watching characters grow.  DC didn't adopt this kind of "continuity" for a long time and that was a difference in the flavor between the two companies.

I think super-hero characters would remain "viable" much longer not through "growth," but if continuity were abandoned in all but the most rudimentary sense.  A tone that struck a balance between 80's Marvel and 50's DC could entertain all-ages audiences, well, forever. 


Edited by Mark Haslett on 05 November 2005 at 9:00pm
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Jacob P Secrest
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 9:24pm | IP Logged | 3  

I like growth in comics, but only to a small level, I like going through
multiple Robins, I like things like that, I don't think that all comic heroes
should age, I only think a very few should, and they should selectively
age, I don't think that the characters need to age to be interesting, but
the occasional aging now and then can certainly add spice into the
mixture.

Though I do not want to see a married Peter Parker, it's just kind of
boring.
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Jonathan Watkins
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | 4  

Who is the audience this industry needs more desperately?  Is it the young first-time comic buyer or the adult who has followed the big name titles but who is now finding that the same repetetive stories, themes, characters are loosing his interest?  I was a X-Men, Thor, Batman addict all through the 80's.  But now I'm a Preacher, Leage of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Sin City kind of reader.  Somehwere along the way I started realizing that I knew what would happen to Spider-Man before I ever picked up the latest issue.

There has to be some profitable balance between keeping iconic titles tied to the emerging young audience while still offering plenty of alternative, finite stories for people like me.  I don't want Peter Parker to leave High School--not because I plan on reading the title any longer, but in the hope that my eleven year-old will find the same magic in it that I did at his age.

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | 5  

Jacob-- I agree seeing the change adds spice, it's nice and fun speaking as the fan who gets to buy the "story you never thought you'd see -- Robin Dies!"

But then, if you're like the average fan, you stop buying the comics.  The rest of the industry is left with a revolving door on the passenger side of the batmobile and the next fans coming to the hobby have to play catch-up from day one.

My opinion is that any significant change (a change in Robins, for example) opens the door to the current situation where every new creative team feels bound to make a mark on the character. 

On the other hand, I can see clever writers under strict editorial supervision creating reasons there might be to train a new Robin and have the story fall under the umbrella of an "illusion of change."  Provided the original Robin isn't "aged" and that the "change" can be reversed.  But make Robin grow up and then there's an opening for someone to "explain" how Superman aged, and everyone else, and then it's time for another Crisis event!


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Jay Matthews
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | 6  

I was rereading some Peter Parker from 1979 (No. 32, I believe).  He drops into his apartment and showers.  He goes into the kitchen famished, and says something to the effect of "I'm starved!  I haven't eaten since before my battle with [insert baddie here]."  There was an editor's footnote pointing out that was six issues ago.

I was in heaven.  Six issues between meals.  That's my idea of "growth."  And the editor's footnote was my idea of "continuity."
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | 7  

Jonathan Watkins: "Who is the audience this industry needs more desperately?  Is it the young first-time comic buyer or the adult who has followed the big name titles but who is now finding that the same repetetive stories, themes, characters are loosing his interest?"

***

Which audience is going to be around in ten, twenty, thirty years?  The adult fans will dwindle, you can't keep them all.  And while you're busy (as a publisher) chasing that dwindeling audience, you're making sure that the young first-time readers never come back because the stories, themes and characters that made the comic great to begin with have all been replaced with older, ironic, fan-pandering twists and "growth."

Comics desperately need the young first timers -- more than anything else.
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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 8  

If the future of the industry depends on attracting new readers and those readers are optimally younger readers, then we're in a lot of trouble.  The archetypes have all been filled since pretty much the 60s, and they've all drifted JUST far enough to be less satisfying.  And where are the new characters?  New characters pop up left and friggin' right, and the last one I found remotely interesting was Firestorm.  That was 1978.  New characters cannot compete with the classic ones, and the bastardized versions can't compete with the originals.
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Trevor Colligan
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | 9  

there`s a member on this forum I believe who as a signature that says something like, "ultimate spider-man? no thanks, i`d rather read the original than some copy" . that kind of attitude bothers me, if you`d like to read the original series, fine by me, but you`re missing the point of ultimate spider-man, ultimate spider-man is what spider-man should be, a teenager of this year.

john said something that relates to this on the imho panel that he used to do, or maybe he still does it, where he talks about how the original superboy couldn`t last in a series in 2005 because people would care too much about the time that clark kent is a kid.

basically, "growth" in comics should be to a strict minimum and adults shouldn`t be reading comics, it started as a kid`s medium and should stay that way, but hey, an audience is an audience.
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Trevor Colligan
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 10:00pm | IP Logged | 10  

I was rereading some Peter Parker from 1979 (No. 32, I believe).  He drops into his apartment and showers.  He goes into the kitchen famished, and says something to the effect of "I'm starved!  I haven't eaten since before my battle with [insert baddie here]."  There was an editor's footnote pointing out that was six issues ago.

I was in heaven.  Six issues between meals.  That's my idea of "growth."  And the editor's footnote was my idea of "continuity."


man, i wish for the days when the editors gave little side notes in every comic. i want those days now!
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Kurt Evans
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | 11  

I've said it in other threads, I'll say it again.  I don't want to see characters age, but I like the idea of "character growth," although I would suggest that it should mostly be imaginary growth - i.e., something that effects the character for a story arc, or perhaps something that becomes part of canon and is occasionally referred to.

I disagree strongly, however, with the notion that fictional characters can't or shouldn't experience "growth."  The point of a story arc, from my perspective, is to create an "I learned a lesson here" feeling.  But this sort of thing can be very simple.  If Captain Action was nearly trapped by his main bad guy, Nero Nemesis in issue #3, then he shouldn't fall for the same trap somewhere down the line.  Nemesis shouldn't repeat traps and if he has the idiocy to try, Captain Action should remember his previous experience.

It's a little different with a serial fiction character.  For example, it can be burdensome to become a slave to continuity.  But if I'm writing Captain Action, although I won't want to age him or change his character, I will want to tell stories that "effect" him.  These stories would be very important to Captain Action for the duration of my time on his series, but I wouldn't kill off or change any of Captain Action's supporting cast.  But - and a big but, here - after I leave the series, Captain Action should be the same guy he was before I got there.  Whatever "event" he experienced should become meaningless and moot by the time the next writer comes along.

I think it's a fine line.  But the bottom of that fine line is that fictional characters should experience a limited amount of growth, even if they are in an ongoing series like comic books.

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Jason Fulton
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Posted: 05 November 2005 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | 12  

Companies should keep creators that are unable to write all-ages characters off of all-ages books.

If you're 'Creator X' and you have a 'rip roaring brill on toast' story about Spider-Man having a gangbang with his Amazing Friends, that creator should create a Spider-Man analog and self-publish. I mean, if the idea is so golden, the character doesn't matter, right? It'll sell like hotcakes!

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