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David Blot
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 858
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 7:21pm | IP Logged | 1
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re: F* the Industry, Lets Art -- is exactally HOW and WHY the industry will
die -- Arrogant Selfish people who want to do stuff for themselves and a
narrow clique of people instead any thoughts towards making sure there
Is an industry to ART in years from now.
-----
Dear Troy, is just because you (and the Vertigo people also ;) ) 's got
some pompous notion of Art.
It's not black or white. It is black & white.
A good book could be Vertigo, or Byrne's, or Jaime Hernandez or Bendis
or Eisner or Joe Matt or Kirby or Joe Kubert or Dave Sim or.. you get the
drift !
Thats a good book. That's art for me.
Nothing about 'Arrogant Selfish people' in my mind.
And for example , Grant Morrison is not pompous is talentous :)
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | 2
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"Fuck the industry, Let's Art."
I strongly disagree with that. If there is no industry that can support
the livelihoods of full time, professional artists then real talent
will find other things to do.
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Troy Nunis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4598
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 3
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and my point is, a good story ISN'T ENOUGH. The Best Story in the world can still leave your properties damaged and unuseable, Morrison is excellent at doing this trick. You CAN'T F* the Industry and expect there to continue to BE one, no matter how Artfully you do it. You have to do what you have to do to make the Industry LIVE, and a TRUE ARTIST should be good enough to do THAT and make a good story of it.
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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 4
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"The original post of this thread mentioned "the comics industry" not "the American super hero comics industry".
Apparently comics are doing fine in other parts of the world. But in THIS country the comics industry is a nightmare, and it wasn't always that way. And the topic implies that there is a poison in the industry dominated by two companies. Those two companies have produced the most recognizable icons in the world, in any country. Those icons are the bedrock, and they have been reduced in stature because of insipid idea men and suits, rather than built upon to create a medium unsurpassed in its uniqueness, instead of just storyboards for some future film production.
Manga isn't in trouble in Japan. The integrity of the icons of our collective consciousness are in danger of having their faces sold to accomodate the latest boy band member.
Edited by Chad Carter on 25 August 2005 at 7:27pm
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36132
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | 5
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Troy, I think it's safe to say that Marvel filed bankruptcy for a
number of reasons. One was, of course, exanding beyond it's
capacity. Another was the bust of the mid-90s seeing sales of
comic books plummeting. It wasn't just one or the other.
Two sources back this up (bold mine):
From http://www.toonopedia.com/marvel.htm
And that's when the chaos began.
Characteristically, Perelman gutted the company to shore up his own financial
house of cards. A series of business decisions that could most kindly be called
"questionable", combined with industry-wide unfavorable trends, led
to Marvel's 1996 declaration of bankruptcy.
From Wikipedia http://www.answers.com/topic/marvel-comics
Marvel earned a great deal of money early in the 1990s due to the comic book boom going on at the time, but by
the middle of the decade the industry had slumped and Marvel filed for bankruptcy, amidst accusations that Perelman had strip-mined
the company for his own gain. The casualties include the comic book
distribution industry in 1994, when Marvel announced it was acquiring Heroes World to
use as its exclusive distributor. As the industry's other major publishers made
exclusive distribution deals with other companies, the loss of the industry's
largest companies threw the majority of the comic book distributors out of
business. Although Marvel's plan failed, only Diamond Comic Distributors Inc. now exists as the major
distributor of comic books in North America, a development many comics retailers believe
profoundly damaged the business status of the industry.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | 6
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"Apparently comics are doing fine in other parts of the world."
Like they say , the grass looks always looks greener on the other side.
I've been told that Japanese Manga studios face horrendous challenges
trying to survive.
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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | 7
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"Like they say , the grass looks always looks greener on the other side. I've been told that Japanese Manga studios face horrendous challenges trying to survive."
You're right. If a manga company falls, will it make a noise? The loss of DOOM PATROL because of an unhealthy American Industry concerns me. Am I supposed to care about manga, a form of comics art I find annoying and vapid? And yes, I'm an ignoramous about it, like I am about romantic comedies and reality television. DON'T CARE if they are valid forms. DOOM PATROL is f**ked, that's all I know.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | 8
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"And yes, I'm an ignoramous about it, like I am about romantic comedies and reality television."
What comics in Japan and France don't have to contend with is the
world's largest movie and T.V. industry in their own backyard. A
comedic Manga about young urban singles can probably compete with
Japanese T.V. An equivalent American comic has to compete against the
media monster that is Friends.
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Lance Hill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2005
Posts: 991
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 8:11pm | IP Logged | 9
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"Apparently comics are doing fine in other parts of the world. But in THIS country the comics industry is a nightmare, and it wasn't always that way. etc."
I don't see why a discussion of the American comic industry should be limited to a discussion of super hero comics.
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David Blot
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 858
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | 10
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re : to all. I describe the situation in France because its a huge comic
book country, we're 60 milions people, you're 260+ million in USA, and
comics books sale today in France much more by quantities and money
made than US. It was in crisis in the 80's mind you, when publishers had
to switch the market from press to graphic novels. And it will go back to
crisis soon I think, because there's too much stuff. Then it will be
successfull again etc... Dont you John Byrne fans know about Phoenix ?
Instead of trying to save the comic book format in USA (wich I love of
course but thats not the point) try to look for new ways of doing it, and
taking examples from countries who knows how to market it (France &
Japan big way) and why is it succesfull over there (actually Marvel is doing
that better than ever right now. I have to say Fantagraphics is also on a
great trend). Maybe french people dont care about comic book industry,
but they seems to manage it better :)
re : Industry / Art : It is just so strange to have this fixation about money I
have to say. Comic book is first an art, then of course it becomes a
businness. Like every other art. It is not and will never be and he cannot
be opposite.
MY GOD : Don't you remember ? Sales were huge early 90's and the
quality was horrible. Is it so hard to admit ???
It was Very good for the industry (short term capitalist mentality),
Very bad for Art.
Choose your side :)
re : to Trevor, I just wished Raphael Saadiq or Common were selling as
much as 50 Cent but that is not the case. Aretha, Stevie & MArvin used to
sell as much as 50 Cent today. Apply this to comics now and then and ...
re : to Joe Z. If we have our own successfull comic book we also have own
'friends' style of sitcom. I dont see your point. BTW I thought Happy Days
was so cool when I was a teen. Didnt stop me to read comic books and
still doing so. But I dont watch Friends. That maybe the thing :)
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 11
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". If we have our own successfull comic book we also have own
'friends' style of sitcom."
Hollywood is an incredibly formidable competitor. French directors and
film people complain all the time about Hollywood's dominance over world
cinema. If Hollywood can stifle the local industries of foreign
countries, think about what it does to the entertainment market in America.
I have to pay to read Love and Rockets. Friends is free on T.V. , and quite frankly far more people can relate to it.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 25 August 2005 at 8:41pm
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 25 August 2005 at 9:00pm | IP Logged | 12
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"Instead of trying to save the comic book format in USA"
I can respect the sincerity of you and many others who think that the
graphic novel format is the cure for the American comic book industry.
Its a format that some fans find more attractive. The term "Graphic
Novel" sounds more like serious literature to the general population
than "Comic Books".
What is completely wrong is the idea that the monthly format must be
abandoned. Do you even stop to think why Marvel still produces
publishes in the 32 page format, when virtually all its stories are
written for trade? Because they are afraid that if they went entirely
to trade format we fans would stop showing up at the LCS every
Wednesday. In the graphic novel format there's no rush to pick up the
next chapter before it sells out. If you wait six months for the next
Uncanny X-Men novel, why not wait another few months to buy it? So then you
go to the LCS once a month, or once every six months, or once a year
... and all of a sudden the habit is broken. Then we would buy comic
books not with a fan mentality, but just as any regular consumer would
with books and DVDs. And that
spells disaster for an industry that depends on individuals spending
$100 , $200, $300 on comics and merchandise every month.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 25 August 2005 at 9:03pm
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Topic Closed)
