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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | 1
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"The rise of manga is good for pros because it means kids are reading
comics. It's not good for Marvel or DC, because they aren't reading
their comics, but that's not the same thing"
What's this mean? Manga is still not representative of comics that will propel the medium to new heights. In fact, it's a dumbing down of the product. Manga readers aren't going to discover, in general, GOON or CONAN or QUEEN AND COUNTRY, they're too busy wanking with Manga. In bookstores the Manga and regular trades are seperated. There's almost NO crossover readers I can see while standing there, though I'd say the Manga readers outnumber the trades readers somewhat. Of course, there's an entire wall of Manga at Borders and one unit of trades. What's that say? Manga's cheaper and producing much more? Great.
Also, the Manga readers are usually much younger. So essentially the Big Two are allowing younger readers to be sucked away while the rest of us balding 30+ guys hang onto the idea of real comics as represented by a few creators like Byrne and Mignola.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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"I just don't see what the point is in getting outraged at change, even
when it's a change that we don't like."
Im not outraged at change, I'm bewildered by the attitude of supposed
"fans" of American comic books that it has no real future, not even in
its home market.
If I didn't believe the American tradition of comic books had a future,
or is among the best in the world, I wouldn't call myself a fan, or
particiapte on message boards discussing the matter.
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 3
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Chad Carter:
Manga readers aren't going to discover, in general, GOON or CONAN or
QUEEN AND COUNTRY, they're too busy wanking with Manga
===========
That's hardly a fair description of Japanese output as a whole. If readers
discover stuff like Ghost In The Shell, Lone Wolf and Cub, Phoenix, Buddha,
Battle Angel Alita, Sanctuary or Eagle, they'll find stuff that's honestly more
worthy of their time and money than the "mature" output Marvel puts out
these days.
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Steve Horton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3574
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 4
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As a pro writer who's struggled with breaking into mainstream comics for years, I've had my greatest success with the manga medium. I came really really close to a book deal with a manga publisher (and it may still happen, who knows?) while I've never even come close to talking to Marvel or DC.
So that's where the future lies, I think.
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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | 5
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Bah. Marvel's "mature" output sucks donkey. Everyone acknowledges that who loves comics and wishes for a return to pure story-telling and fun and accessibility. GOON has that type of feeling to it, while QUEEN AND COUNTRY is definitely for adults who've followed the storyline over time. Not really a place to jump on.
The Manga issue is permeating the market, suffusing it probably a better word. There's going to be a Spawn Manga if you can believe that whorishness. A lot of the art is reflecting that slick, big-eyed Manga style in order to get on the bandwagon, and it stinks. There are comics out there, and not all of them superhero, which should be rewarded for being some of the finiest examples of their medium and yet no one knows about them, who are adults. A lot of comics aren't suitable or accessible, for kids weaned on DRAGONBALL Z who aren't intested in anything that isn't Anime or Manga.
The choice is being made by the Big Two to let the idea of comics that Kirby and Eisner would have respected to be ghetto-ized to the point of nonexistence. I know a lot of adults who dig on Anime and Manga but I can't grasp it because frankly it's less-than rather than greater-than. I suppose we'll have to be content with Busiek and Byrne and Johns as the last creators whom Kirby might have given a cigar to.
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Mike Tishman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 July 2005
Posts: 229
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 6
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Chad Carter wrote:
What's this mean? Manga is still not representative of
comics that will propel the medium to new heights. In fact, it's a dumbing
down of the product. Manga readers aren't going to discover, in general,
GOON or CONAN or QUEEN AND COUNTRY, they're too busy wanking with
Manga. In bookstores the Manga and regular trades are seperated.
There's almost NO crossover readers I can see while standing there,
though I'd say the Manga readers outnumber the trades readers
somewhat. |
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You're missing the point. It's not about crossover readers or manga
readers becoming readers of American comics. It's about the fact that
manga are, themselves, comics, and as such, manga readers are comics
readers. Since the manga industry is thriving in America, and manga are
comics, the comics industry as a whole is doing pretty well.
It's just that the segment of the overall comics industry that we
follow is not doing as well. If our segment should happen to die out, that
doesn't mean that comics as a whole have died out if manga are still
going strong.
Saying that the music industry is in the toilet, simply because the most
recent albums by your favorite artists aren't selling well, is not accurate if
there are strong sales of CDs you don't listen to. Rock music sales, for
instance, have fallen behind hip-hop and country sales in the last few
years, and if you don't like hip-hop or country and you do like rock, that's
not necessarily good news for you, but in and of itself it doesn't mean
that the music industry isn't doing well. You can say that the industry is
dominated by styles of music you don't like and that you're not interested
in, but that's not the same as saying that the music industry isn't doing
well.
Joe Zhang wrote:
Im not outraged at change, I'm bewildered by the
attitude of supposed "fans" of American comic books that it has no real
future, not even in its home market.
If I didn't believe the American tradition of comic books had a future, or is
among the best in the world, I wouldn't call myself a fan, or particiapte on
message boards discussing the matter. |
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That's ridiculous! You don't have to think something has an unrealistically
chance of succeeding to be a fan - you just have to have an interest in it.
Look at fans of the Chicago Cubs or the Red Sox. It's not about winning
and losing, but rather love of the team.
I love American comic books, but I think there's virtually no chance that
they will still be around in any recognizable form by the time I have
grandchildren, except as historical curiosities. Their time is probably
almost up. That's sad, but I'm determined to enjoy the last years rather
than bitching about them.
Everything ends. American comics as we know them won't live forever,
and why should
they? Frank Sinatra was a great talent, but there's nothing wrong with the
fact that kids from the next generation listened to the Beatles, and the
ones after that listened to Tupac. That's just the way things roll.
Kids will find good things to occupy their time - they already have.
Comics fans will have a lot of stuff to read for as long as we're likely to be
interested in reading it. The world keeps spinning.
To be frank, I resent the implication that I'm not a real comics fan
because I'm not willing to participate in some absurd and misguided
boosterism. Just because I love Batman doesn't mean I think I have some
kind of duty to make kids from future generations love him, too. I can
read the Flash, some kid next to me can read Shonen Jump. If he's happy,
I'm happy for him. Sure, I'd love to see him get interested in the Flash,
too, but if he doesn't, it's not the end of the world.
Chad Carter wrote:
There are comics out there, and not all of them
superhero, which should be rewarded for being some of the finiest
examples of their medium and yet no one knows about them, who are
adults. |
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In my experience, quality and sales are largely unrelated. There are plenty
of good creative projects (music, comics, movies, whatever) that suck and
still make a lot of money, and plenty that are good and make no money.
There are also quite a few that are good and make a lot of money,
and plenty that suck and make no money.
Back when I was an angsty-black-clad teenager, I used to rail against the
unfairness of it all, but ultimately I just got over it. Some things are
undeservedly popular or unpopular. Life's not fair. The best thing I can do
about it is support the art that I love without stressing too much about
the bigger picture.
Edited by Mike Tishman on 28 August 2005 at 6:13pm
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David Blot
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 858
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | 7
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Once again the topic is :
Is the Industry (of comic book) really in a bad shape ?
Not : Is the industry (of super hero sold monthly with 32pgs at 2.99$)
really in bad shape ?
Not even : Is the super hero's storytelling the we used to love as teens
really in a bad shape ?
That's another topic.
So can we agree on this one : globally (couting everything and wherever
they're sold in USA, from Manga to Peanuts to Bendis to Doom Patrol to
Joe Matt and European imports) NO it's not in a bad shape. Really no.
It's doing fine, thank you.
And mind you it's even more easier to find every super hero book you
loved younger in TPB form ! So you've got the best of the choice !
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Steve Lieber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 July 2004
Posts: 295
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | 8
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"When
the generation of young fans of Manga grow up, will they seek adult
fare that you produce or that which Japanese artists will offer? "
I think both. I had a subscription to some magazine, (Children's
Digest, I think) when I was a kid and they ran black and white Tintin
reprints. I LOVED those stories and I never even knew that they were 30
year old Belgian comics. It was part of a diet that included Marvel and
Dc action adventure comics, Harvey comics, the Pittsburgh Press comics
page, newspaper strip reprints, and Mad Magazine. Kids and teens
today will be exposed to a similar variety- from strips, to the comics
in Disney Adventures and Nicolodeon Magazine, to Tintin and Asterix,to
webcomics, to Sandman, to Bone, to the Scholastic adaptations of
Goosebumps and Baby Sitters Club, and, yes, to superhero comics and
reprints at their local library.
"
Is your graphic novel audience representational of the general
audience, or are they just us guys who grew up on American comics?"
I don't think I have -an- audience. Different things I've done are read
by different audiences. I've done comics for big direct market
publishers, a Turkish magazine, a young adult literary magazine, a
regional magazine, many niche-oriented small press comics publishers,
an independent book publisher, countless ad agencies, a web publisher,
an educational publisher, and my own micro-publishing house. In a
couple of weeks, I start drawing an ongoing bi-weekly editorial comic in the
largest daily paper in the state. I also should note that I've earned
money from work reprinted in a dozen or so countries. Globalization
works both ways.
To answer more specifically, I don't think I can sell a reprint of my
run on Hawkman to a teenager who mostly reads shojo and web comics, but I
bet she'll like
Flytrap.
Edited by Steve Lieber on 28 August 2005 at 6:13pm
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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | 9
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Once again the topic is :
Is the Industry (of comic book) really in a bad shape ?
Not : Is the industry (of super hero sold monthly with 32pgs at 2.99$)
really in bad shape ?
Not even : Is the super hero's storytelling the we used to love as teens
really in a bad shape ?
That's another topic.
So can we agree on this one : globally (couting everything and wherever
they're sold in USA, from Manga to Peanuts to Bendis to Doom Patrol to
Joe Matt and European imports) NO it's not in a bad shape. Really no.
It's doing fine, thank you.
And mind you it's even more easier to find every super hero book you
loved younger in TPB form ! So you've got the best of the choice !"
And once again, a chiming from somebody trying to make it clear that the backbone of comic books, the superhero comic, is not central to the discussion. Just because Japan's superheroes are doing great over here, does not mean that that is great for the entire Industry which does rely on Batman, Superman, Spider-Man. Also, that the shitty quality of the editing, construction, and quality of the books from these companies and their approach to these icons is transforming the creative face of the Industry into something that doesn't have the artistic, ethical value of one of Kirby's pubic hairs! When the American icons are doing great, when the kids are buying the shit out of comics as they were meant to be, then there can be a healthy overall Industry ready for the future. Not ready to fill somebody's pocket for the immediate present. Which is all that is happening and has happened for nearly two decades, and is worsening.
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Steve Lieber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 July 2004
Posts: 295
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | 10
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"When the American icons are doing great, when the kids are buying the
shit out of comics as they were meant to be, then there can be a
healthy overall Industry ready for the future."
I think that's where the difference is between you and some of the
other readers here, Chad. I don't think Superman, Batman and Spiderman
are "comics as they were meant to be." I think Donald Duck is comics as
they were meant to be, too. And Tintin. And Asterix. And Astro Boy. And
Maus. And Zap. And City of Glass. And Little Lulu. And Archie. And Fax
from Sarajevo. And Black Hole. And Louis Riel. And Mad. And Suspended
in Language. And A Jew in Communist Prague. And Slow News Day. And
Peanuts. And Dick Tracy. And Clyde Fans. And Blankets. And The Fixer.
And A Contract With God. And Love & Rockets. And Ice Haven. And
Crime Suspensestories. And Private Beach. And Journey. And From Hell.
And The Interman. And Alvar Mayor. And Road to Perdition. And Achewood.
And Bone. And Ethel and Ernest. I could go on and on all day, naming great comics that for
whatever reason, you'll probably never seek out.
The point is that, for many of the people you're addressing, "comics"
doesn't equal
"masked-adventurer-stories-as-they-were-told-between- WW2-and
-the-first-Gulf-War". There's a lot more to the medium than that.
Edited by Steve Lieber on 28 August 2005 at 6:40pm
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Mike Tishman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 July 2005
Posts: 229
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:48pm | IP Logged | 11
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Chad Carter wrote:
And once again, a chiming from somebody trying to
make it clear that the backbone of comic books, the superhero comic, is
not central to the discussion. |
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Superheroes are not the backbone of "the comic book." Superheroes are
the backbone of "the post-Comics Code mainstream American comic
publication industry." Those are not the same thing.
Chad Carter wrote:
Just because Japan's superheroes are doing great
over here, |
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Most manga books are not superhero books.
Chad Carter wrote:
does not mean that that is great for the entire
Industry which does rely on Batman, Superman, Spider-Man. |
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The "entire industry" does not rely on those characters. Two major
companies do, but those two companies are, arguably, less and less
relevant to the big picture.
Before the rise of Microsoft, IBM practically was the entire computer
industry. Then Microsoft came out with a better business plan, and
essentially made IBM into a minor player. They're still a big company, but
if IBM went out of business tomorrow, the overall trajectory of the tech
industry wouldn't really be affected much.
Marvel and DC, and the characters associated with them, are in many
ways IBM to Tokyopop's Microsoft. That doesn't mean they can't still be
successful in their own niche, but they just aren't the backbone of the
industry as a whole anymore.
Chad Carter wrote:
Also, that the shitty quality of the editing,
construction, and quality of the books from these companies and their
approach to these icons is transforming the creative face of the Industry
into something that doesn't have the artistic, ethical value of one of
Kirby's pubic hairs! |
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Isn't that a matter of taste, though? I think it's too easy to make the
mistake of reading one's own taste for the health of the market.
Chad Carter wrote:
When the American icons are doing great, when the
kids are buying the shit out of comics as they were meant to be, |
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One, this is unlikely to happen again in our lifetimes, in the way that you
mean, so it's not really worth talking about.
Two, kids aren't "meant to be" reading American superhero comics
specifically. It's not like they're deprived of great and interesting things to
read and play with. My grandfather was always a little disappointed that I
wasn't interested in the Lone Ranger and Tonto, and I expect to be a little
sad when I have kids and they're more interested in the things their
generation is interested in than the things I was interested in, but you
can't build a business around that kind of sentimentality.
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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9704
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 12
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Steve Lieber wrote:
I guess it depends on how broadly or narrowly we
define "comics industry." I think that if Tokyopop, Viz, Pantheon, First
Second, Lerner, Andrews Mcmeel, Vertical and Scholastic are publishing
comics, they're part of my industry. If the discussion is only about North
American direct market stores serviced by Diamond, there's gonna
something to be worried about. |
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I think you're confusing the industry with the medium, but I see what
you're talking about. Frankly, I don't see an increase in readership or even
awareness of the medium. Quite the opposite. Obviously, your mileage
may vary. And while I agree that there is a lot more available for fans of
the medium to enjoy now than there was twenty years ago when I was
your R.A., I'm very concerned about the state of the industry that provides
that medium to us, because it's not very effective.
[edited to add] For instance, I've never been able to find a copy of
WHITEOUT, which has really pissed me off, since I do my best to collect
anything by people I knew at JKS. And I know about it.
Edited by John Mietus on 28 August 2005 at 6:57pm
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Topic Closed)
