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F. Ron Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1289
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| Posted: 27 August 2005 at 11:37pm | IP Logged | 1
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The cartoonist is a kin to the commercial illustrator. The commercial
illustrator works in the service of a product or an editor. With comics the
work happens to be the commodity in the service of a property; the
character. The extent to which one can express themselves beyond the
mandate of the job depends on that persons ability to balance the needs
of the client and that of their ego. In the case of Michelangelo and his
client, I understand there was a lot of friction over the Sistine chapel.
Does anyone know if he was hired again by that client to paint anything
else?
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Troy Nunis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4598
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| Posted: 27 August 2005 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | 2
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You are speaking of the "cartoonist" as if the work is cut and dried and everyone has the same limitations and freedoms. If they were ALL "Art Robots" (which I guess you would prefer to be "Illustration Robots"?) with no say at all in what they do. What of the Writer/Artist? What of the Artist working on a Creator owned book? Is there No Art in the Marvel style of taking a written plot and completely visualizing how to tell it as a story? Even in a Full Script, no art in picking the camera angles, the stylings, the very art of storytelling? I've had nutjobs whittle down what is Art to be such a selfless thing nothing other than doodling while on the phone or 2 years olds finger painting counts as Art because surely everything else has SOME exterior factors influencing how it turns out, some expectations that have to be met.
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F. Ron Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1289
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| Posted: 27 August 2005 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | 3
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No, I'm speaking of cartoonists and illustrators as though they were
commercial artists. The term is self limiting. What have I said that would
indicate the slightest indifference to their skills and abilities? Haven't I
already indicated my appreciation and recognition of comics as an art
form? I am far more particular about what I will call art. A sufficient level
of craft, to me, makes one an exceptional craftsperson. A sufficient level
of an understanding of the human condition makes one an artist. And
what of the writer/artist? More power to them for some of them do create
art!
Edited by F. Ron Miller on 28 August 2005 at 12:09am
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Steve Lieber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 July 2004
Posts: 295
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 1:28am | IP Logged | 4
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There's a lot of doom and gloom, and for the life of me, I don't see
why. I don't think there's ever been a better time to read comics. An
enormous amount of the best work of previous decades is available in
affordable reprints or archival editions that you can borrow from a
library. There's a flood of fine work from other countries available in
English. Cartoonists who want to undertake a big, ambitious project
know that there's a market for such things. As a result, we're getting
more good long-form comics for adults, and we aren't losing the readers
who want something besides escapism and fun. And the cartoonists who
want to do such things are sticking with the medium and getting better.
Thanks to manga, there are more women and girls buying comics than
there have been in many, many years, and these women are already
producing their own comics by the truckload. We're going to find out
soon how receptive the manga market is to domestic comics. Everything
I've heard says that they love Wendy Pini's work when they see it, so
there's every reason to believe that when they're exposed to other
comics that offer that sort of intense immersion in an artist's
imagined world, they'll be similarly drawn in.
For example, this spring, Scholastic
released the first of nine Bone reprint volumes in color. This has
already sold over 100,000 copies. That's for ten year old material
that's been available continuously for a decade in a wide variety of
formats. They've got an entire line of all-new, all-ages graphic novels
on the way.
They also published the eight volumes of Dav Pilkey's "Captain
Underpants" books, (which are comics sold as children's books.) These
have, as of 2003, sold over 25 million copies. That's 8 books at 3
million copies each, and there's every reason to believe they can sell
every one of those readers a bunch of graphic novels.
Comics have made the big move into libraries over the last decade, and
thanks to high circulation numbers, they're getting more popular with
librarians every year. There are 16 thousand public libraries in the US
and 93 thousand school libraries. This is an enormous
market for all comics, but particularly those for children, and (for
those of you worried about rising cover prices) it knocks the price of
entry down to zero.
Yes, superhero circulation is down and it's harder to make a living
working in some genres than it was in 1965. But there is a ton of good
news out there, and cartoonists overall have more and better options
now than they ever did before.
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Steve Horton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3574
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 2:29am | IP Logged | 5
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Welcome, Steve! I loved WHITEOUT, a lot!
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Ian Evans
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 September 2004
Posts: 2433
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 3:17am | IP Logged | 6
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One man's definition of art is (sometimes literally) another man's definition of garbage...no point falling out over it guys...FWIW I see where Ron (or F. Ron?) is coming from and would agree with him to a large extent...art and Art being two separate things I think
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Lance Hill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2005
Posts: 991
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 5:57am | IP Logged | 7
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"That's not what I was saying (or trying to say, anyway), but re-reading
what I wrote, I see how you came to that conclusion. I was referring to
those who only read examples of the medium that they think is "high art"
and therefore refer to said examples as "graphic novels" rather than just
recognizing the entire medium as an artform, and that like all artforms
there is "high art" and popular drivel and everything in between -- the
entirety of which I happen to love. You know, the people who have to
make excuses for reading comics.
In other words, in pointing out the snobs I came across as one myself,
which was not my intent, and for that I apologize."
Honestly, I think that the manga snobs are the worst. The ones who have disdain for any comics that aren't Asian.
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Jon Godson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 8
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Where will the new readers come from?
When I first started reading comics in the 5th grade I did not like to buy a
comic that did not have a self-contained story. Nothing would lose me
faster than to find myself in the middle of a confusing plot, especially if I
was unfamiliar with the characters and premise.
I could usually find these stories in World's Finest, Brave & Bold,
Superman, Action, DC Comics Presents...even Justice League of America.
Most of these books ran single issue stories at least 8-10 months out of
the year - even Justice League (although it was Giant-size at the time.)
And most of the other books went to great lengths (maybe two pages!) to
recap what I might have missed previously.
How many series today have self-contained stories - not just
occassionally - but also for most of the year? Why do some fans find it
necessary to wait for a first issue as a jumping on point for a character?
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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9704
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 8:27am | IP Logged | 9
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Steve Lieber wrote:
There's a lot of doom and gloom, and for the life of
me, I don't see why. I don't think there's ever been a better time to read
comics. |
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It's not doom and gloom about the overall content, quality and choices,
Steve, it's doom and gloom about the downward spiral of overall unit
sales -- which may be on an upswing, but whether that's temporary or a
trend we don't know yet.
The fact does remain: based on sales, a book that is considered a hit now
would have been cancelled twenty five (or so) years ago, regardless of
how many choices of genres or titles there are. Comics are not as
accessible as they were. The number of shops which sell them appears to
be decreasing in number (need more data collected to verify that one).
Until the industry wises up and figures out a better distribution model,
there's going to be trouble down the road.
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Steve Lieber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 July 2004
Posts: 295
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | 10
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John M:
I guess it depends on how broadly or narrowly we define "comics
industry." I think that if Tokyopop, Viz, Pantheon, First Second,
Lerner, Andrews Mcmeel, Vertical and Scholastic are publishing comics,
they're part of my industry. If the discussion is only about North
American direct market stores serviced by Diamond, there's gonna
something to be worried about. That system serves one particular market
very well, and a few others indifferently. I'm optimistic because I
think there's a lot more to comics than that one particular market. And
thanks to the emergence of the library and bookstore markets, comics
are going to be even more accesible now, to both kids and adults, than
they were when we were growing up.
Just to add perspective, when I was a kid, there were two newsstands
nearby selling comics, a library, and one bookstore that carried a
couple of strip reprints and maybe "Origins of Marvel Comics."
The Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh had fewer than 3 dozen
comics-related books. I read them all, repeatedly. I just checked
their on-line catalog and there are now over 3 thousand
different titles in the system. They have programs about graphic
novels, and displays of recommended ones. The bookstore across from the
library now has a graphic novel section with several hundred titles.
One of the two newstands is still there, and it still has the same
comics rack. The music and video game stores carry Shonen Jump magazine
and some Tokyopop titles. And of course, an adult can buy any comic he
or she wants over the internet. These things to me describe a huge net
gain in accessability.
Note that this isn't some hip, happening west coast enclave I'm
describing. It's a neighborhood in rust-belt Pittsburgh. If you
can, do a little survey of how many places someone in your old
neighborhood could get comics to read back when you were growing up,
versus how many places they can get them now.
Here's what I see: while the numbers in one part of the industry
have contracted, the readership in other parts is exploding, and unlike
the way it used to be, there's no reason to expect that we'll lose most
of our new readers every few years. I can honestly say that the
business looks better to me now than it did when I was a inexperienced 20 year old entering the Kubert School.
Edited by Steve Lieber on 28 August 2005 at 4:32pm
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 11
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Sure, but what's the point of a future thriving American comics
industry when it will be published out of Japan? How will John Byrne,
Steve Lieber and all such great talents fit in?
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 12
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When I first started reading comics in the 5th grade I did not like to buy a
comic that did not have a self-contained story. Nothing would lose me
faster than to find myself in the middle of a confusing plot, especially if I
was unfamiliar with the characters and premise
**********************************
I was more the opposite, getting caught up in the hig crossovers and history of the characters almost immediately. If it was Part 1 of 8 I was like yes!
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Topic Closed)
