Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 10 Next >>
Topic: "Spider-Man 2" on Cable (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Michael Arndt
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 April 2004
Posts: 8565
Posted: 07 June 2005 at 8:12pm | IP Logged | 1  

I wish we could have seen him web up his own face after his mask was destroyed just like he had done many times in the comics. Or if not that scene maybe have him confront Jameson wearing a web mask while getting his uniform back. There could have been some banter and "zip" out the window he goes.



Edited by Michael Arndt on 07 June 2005 at 8:13pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
John Donges
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 204
Posted: 07 June 2005 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | 2  

 Andrew Hilsmann wrote:

Lee & Ditko's The Amazing Spider-Man #7, pages 7-8. Read it and weep. Maybe saving John Jameson's space capsule would have made for a more convincing film. I enjoyed the movie, and most of the problems I had with it were the result of all the bad decisions of the first one, with the exception of the dumb unmasking scene. On again, off again powers are a staple of Marvel comics dating back to the 60s. Frank Miller used it during his run on Daredevil. Did it make for a bad story there? 

On again, off again is fine, as long as it's used intelligently. IMO, the filmmakers having Peter fall 20 stories after his powers cut out is not smart. Oh, wait, he's still invulnerable. But his powers just cut out. Which is it?

But why would his powers cutting out affect his web glands, that respond to a muscle contraction? That is not smart to me either.

Daredevil losing his hypersensitivity is a lot more believable to me.

Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Richard Fisher
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1229
Posted: 08 June 2005 at 9:30am | IP Logged | 3  

 Brendan Howard wrote:
  I'm almost always willing to watch a film that has been overwhelmingly popular so I can have an opinion about it. Sometimes I am impressed (never saw GOODFELLAS until last year, and wow!) and sometimes I am puzzled (opposite reaction for SCENT OF A WOMAN).

To change the subject a little, here is my Scent of A Woman story.

So I decided to go rent a movie at one of those big chain video stores (I think it was Blockbuster) and walk up to the kid behind the counter. I ask him, "Do you have the movie 'Scent of A Woman'?" He looks at me like I'm an idiot and says, "I'm sorry sir, we don't carry those types of movies." Right next to him is the manager and he says, "No you moron! He's talking about the Al Pacino movie. You know, HOO-HAH!"

 

Back to Top profile | search
 
Thomas Mets
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 898
Posted: 08 June 2005 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 4  

 John Byrne wrote:

Most people -- especially critics -- thought "Superman II" was better than the first, too. I have long thought -- and this would apply to "Spider-Man" and "Spider-Man 2" -- that this was because the first one did something unconscionable in what was "just a comicbook movie" -- it asked that we take it seriously. Civilians have a tough time with that.


I will disagree with this.
According to Rotten Tomatoes.com, 94% of critics gave Superman 1 a positive review, as opposed to 86% for Superman 2.
According to imdb.com, the average review for Superman was 7.1 (far too low, I know, I know), while the average review for Superman 2 was 6.5.

As for your opinion on Spider-Man 2, I will also have to disagree. It was simply one of my favorite movies to come out in the last year.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Andrew Hilsmann
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 844
Posted: 08 June 2005 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 5  

 John Donges wrote:
 Andrew Hilsmann wrote:

Lee & Ditko's The Amazing Spider-Man #7, pages 7-8. Read it and weep. Maybe saving John Jameson's space capsule would have made for a more convincing film. I enjoyed the movie, and most of the problems I had with it were the result of all the bad decisions of the first one, with the exception of the dumb unmasking scene. On again, off again powers are a staple of Marvel comics dating back to the 60s. Frank Miller used it during his run on Daredevil. Did it make for a bad story there? 

On again, off again is fine, as long as it's used intelligently. IMO, the filmmakers having Peter fall 20 stories after his powers cut out is not smart. Oh, wait, he's still invulnerable. But his powers just cut out. Which is it?

But why would his powers cutting out affect his web glands, that respond to a muscle contraction? That is not smart to me either.

Daredevil losing his hypersensitivity is a lot more believable to me.



John, if it doesn't work for you, I'm certainly cool with that. But in the Daredevil issue we're discussing, #177 -- "Where Angels Fear to Tread", which you find a "lot more believable," Matt Murdock doesn't lose his hypersensitivity, he loses his radar sense. It says it right there on the first page, in the first panel, in the first dialogue balloon -- "I've lost my radar sense! If I can't regain it -- Daredevil is finished!" So by your line of reasoning, there's no reason for Miller's story to be believable either. None of this is outwonk anybody, but to find superheroes credible at all, one has to suspend a great deal of disbelief. All this could very easily be compared to sexual impotence, which has psychological causes as often as physical ones. Psychosomatic illness, or "hysteria" as it was once known, is what gave birth to psychoanalysis in the first place.

By the way, I actually liked the "talking tentacles," and here's why: Octavius is obviously deranged from radiation poisoning, and it's very common for deranged people (manic depressives, schizophrenics, etc.) to have visual and auditory hallucinations. Some scientists have suggested that "divine madness" -- psychosis to you and me -- may be the source of polytheism as a belief system in less "enlightened" cultures ("The little gods in the tentacles are angry with me, etc."). Not that Spider-Man 2 is in any way intended to be especially psychologically profound, either. No Hollywood film usually is. I don't look for a great deal of logic when I go to an action or space opera film.

Again, it's a matter of personal taste as much as "respect for the source material." Though there were many arbitrary changes in both Spider-Man films that I would not have made myself, but I also realize when I walk into the theater that some things that work great in the comics simply won't work on film -- the voice-overs in Sin City being a prime example. For me, any film that draws in new readers can only be beneficial to the industry in the long run.



Edited by Andrew Hilsmann on 08 June 2005 at 11:03am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35950
Posted: 08 June 2005 at 11:10am | IP Logged | 6  

 Thomas Mets wrote:
 John Byrne wrote:

Most people -- especially critics -- thought "Superman II" was better than the first, too. I have long thought -- and this would apply to "Spider-Man" and "Spider-Man 2" -- that this was because the first one did something unconscionable in what was "just a comicbook movie" -- it asked that we take it seriously. Civilians have a tough time with that.


I will disagree with this.
According to Rotten Tomatoes.com, 94% of critics gave Superman 1 a positive review, as opposed to 86% for Superman 2.
According to imdb.com, the average review for Superman was 7.1 (far too low, I know, I know), while the average review for Superman 2 was 6.5.

Thomas, John is talking about reviews at the time of the movie's release.  If I'm not mistaken, both Rotten Tomatoes and IMDb garner "reviews" mainly from user input.  Rotten Tomatoes also includes professional reviews gathered from major newspapers and television critics.  SUPERMAN and SUPERMAN II were around long before the internet and user reviews. As such, he's talking about the reviews of those movies as written 27 and 25 years ago, respectively, and not a website where current positive user reviews can pump up a "fresh" rating.  John's point stands.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Zaki Hasan
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8105
Posted: 08 June 2005 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 7  

It's interesting how the passage of time seems to have changed the opinions of many who initally felt that SUPERMAN II was superior to its predecessor.  I wonder if a similar thing will happen with the SPIDER-MAN flicks.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
John Donges
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 204
Posted: 08 June 2005 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 8  

 Andrew Hilsmann wrote:
 John Donges wrote:
 Andrew Hilsmann wrote:

Lee & Ditko's The Amazing Spider-Man #7, pages 7-8. Read it and weep. Maybe saving John Jameson's space capsule would have made for a more convincing film. I enjoyed the movie, and most of the problems I had with it were the result of all the bad decisions of the first one, with the exception of the dumb unmasking scene. On again, off again powers are a staple of Marvel comics dating back to the 60s. Frank Miller used it during his run on Daredevil. Did it make for a bad story there? 

On again, off again is fine, as long as it's used intelligently. IMO, the filmmakers having Peter fall 20 stories after his powers cut out is not smart. Oh, wait, he's still invulnerable. But his powers just cut out. Which is it?

But why would his powers cutting out affect his web glands, that respond to a muscle contraction? That is not smart to me either.

Daredevil losing his hypersensitivity is a lot more believable to me.



John, if it doesn't work for you, I'm certainly cool with that. But in the Daredevil issue we're discussing, #177 -- "Where Angels Fear to Tread", which you find a "lot more believable," Matt Murdock doesn't lose his hypersensitivity, he loses his radar sense. It says it right there on the first page, in the first panel, in the first dialogue balloon -- "I've lost my radar sense! If I can't regain it -- Daredevil is finished!" So by your line of reasoning, there's no reason for Miller's story to be believable either. None of this is outwonk anybody, but to find superheroes credible at all, one has to suspend a great deal of disbelief. All this could very easily be compared to sexual impotence, which has psychological causes as often as physical ones. Psychosomatic illness, or "hysteria" as it was once known, is what gave birth to psychoanalysis in the first place.

I didn't say I found the story believable, as I've never read it. I was referring to the idea of Daredevil losing his senses as more believable. And I said I have no problem with on again, off again, if it's done intelligently. Did Miller write an intelligent story? If he did, then by 'my line of reasoning', I can believe in it.

My problem with the Spider-Man movie is the loss of his powers, coupled with the loss in function of these biological structures. Okay, I can see his period of psychosomatic-ness affecting his powers. By your example of impotence, I can almost by it affecting his web glands (giants p-nises), but he twitches his hand a certain way and the webbing shoots out. Easy as that.

But upthread I mentioned the hairs on his hands that allow him to wall-crawl (through his gloves!). Does a psychosomatic illness affect these hairs now? Did they fall out and regrow? That's the big part that isn't intelligent to me.

Of course I can suspend belief. I wouldn't be reading comic books as long as I have if I couldn't. But suspension can only go so far with me. Don't we toss around the word verisimilitude around here?

Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Ian Evans
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 September 2004
Posts: 2433
Posted: 08 June 2005 at 11:30am | IP Logged | 9  

 John Donges wrote:

Of course I can suspend belief. I wouldn't be reading comic books as long as I have if I couldn't. But suspension can only go so far with me. Don't we toss around the word verisimilitude around here?

We do indeed but there is no commonly agreed ground about what constitutes verisimilitude, which part of our disbelief we are willing to suspend, etc. 

It depends on you. 

The implication that there is something wrong with someone whose personal line is different to ones own, that does crop up here from time to time, is what leads to the disagreements.  Many of those disagreements make for interesting and stimulating debate, but there is no 'right or wrong' on either side here and we would do well to remember that from time to time.  FWIW I think that the 'there are some things that I am willing to suspend disbelief on but others on which I am not' is a precarious position from which to present any persuasive point

Back to Top profile | search
 
Brendan Howard
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar
FAQ Master Supreme

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4943
Posted: 08 June 2005 at 11:34am | IP Logged | 10  

I know that the common belief around Omaha, Nebraska at the time SUPERMAN II was released was that it was better than the first movie in every way. The sequel was "action-packed" while the first was "boring."

Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Leroy Douresseaux
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1657
Posted: 08 June 2005 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 11  

Fabulous movie!!!  I found lots of stuff to nit pick about, but the film is no more or less non-sensical than what passes for the great superhero comic books.  The filmmakers made fun, escapist entertainment, and what do you know, they sold at least 60 million tickets domestically.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Ian Evans
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 September 2004
Posts: 2433
Posted: 08 June 2005 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 12  

I thought Superman 2  to be better than Superman 1, but I was not a big fan of Superman before the films...I thought the fight scenes were thrilling even though when I watch them now they have not stood the test of time very well.  When I watch them now it is Superman 1 that impresses me most.  The opening sequence of Superman 2 is still one of my favourite opening sequences of any movie
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 10 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login