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Gregg Allinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4252
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| Posted: 06 June 2005 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | 1
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I thought the movie was an alright "human drama" film, but a laughable failure in every way as a superhero film- which, of course, is what a Spider-Man film should be. Doctor Octopus's plot was beyond nonsensical. First off, why did he steal MONEY instead of the parts he needed to rebuild the doohickey of doom? Secondly, why even rebuild the doohickey of doom in the first place? The first one failed, cost him his wife, and fused murderous metal arms to his back. What did he think the second one was going to do? And disappointingly, Doc Ock had nothing to do with Peter's story arc. Say what you will, but at least the first movie put the Green Goblin and Spidey on a collision course. They *had* to fight each other. Doc Ock seemed like he was off in another movie, while the main movie was about powerless Parker fretting about his dumb luck.
Some people have tried arguing to me that romance and human drama are an important part of Spider-Man, and that's why Spider-Man 2 is so good. I agree up to a point- romance and human drama *are* important to Spider-Man, but they aren't the *entirety* of Spider-Man. This time around, Sam Raimi completely failed to address *Spider-Man* in a Spider-Man story. Had the film been titled "The Loves and Losses of Peter Parker", I might be able to get behind it, but as a Spider-Man film, it's a disaster.
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 06 June 2005 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | 2
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I have to disagree here. The villain in Spider-Man 2 was just as relevant as
in Spider-Man 1 in that they each represented an internal struggle that Peter
was having. In Spider-Man 1 it's about whether his gifts exist for himself or
for everybody, with the Goblin representing pure greed. Peter rejected that
and vowed to serve everyone, which brought us into Spider-Man 2. In the
sequel, Doc Ock mirrors the way Peter has let his powers control his life,
much to the detriment of himself and everyone around him, and how he
must find a middle ground being human and superhuman.
It's a good narrative, if you ask me.
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Gregg Allinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4252
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| Posted: 06 June 2005 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | 3
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Flavio Sapha wrote:
It seemed to me they had two movies going on: one was Peter Parker's
Terms of Endearment; the other was Ed Wood's The Obligatory Doctor
Octopus. |
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I can't think of a more perfect description of Spider-Man 2!
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Zaki Hasan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8105
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| Posted: 06 June 2005 at 10:00pm | IP Logged | 4
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Gregg Allinson wrote:
| Secondly, why even rebuild the doohickey of doom
in the first place? The first one failed, cost him his wife, and
fused murderous metal arms to his back. |
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The arms had taken over his mind. They're purpose was to create a
successful fusion reaction, so they basically forced Octavius to
recreate the device so they could fulfill their programming.
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 06 June 2005 at 10:58pm | IP Logged | 5
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JB:
Parker has "lost his powers" but survives a twenty story fall that bends the
roof of the car he lands on
**********
I immediately understood when watching the movie that his problems were
psychosomatic, leaving certain involuntary stuff intact, like surviving a
dangerous fall. I'm not even sure that "problem", which was more like a plot
element, would warrant so much as a No-Prize.
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Corey Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2021
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| Posted: 06 June 2005 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | 6
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LOVED the fight scenes with Doctor Octopus...and thought the actor who played him was great. Other than that, JB is right: this film is completely riddled with plot holes and breakdowns in logic.
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8120
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| Posted: 07 June 2005 at 12:04am | IP Logged | 7
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Eric Kleefeld wrote:
I immediately understood when watching the movie
that his problems were psychosomatic, leaving certain involuntary stuff
intact, like surviving a dangerous fall. I'm not even sure that "problem",
which was more like a plot element, would warrant so much as a No-Prize. |
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Huh? Since when does Spider-Man's powers give him the ability to survive a
fall of 20 stories then land on a hard surface like a car roof? Like Aunt May
said in the first movie, "you're not Superman, you know"
I rembember plenty of cliffhangers where he's falling from a great height
and either had no web fluid or nothing to swing to safety with. That wouldn't
be very suspenseful if the reader knew he could just hit the ground and walk
away with merely a bad back.
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Francesco Vanagolli
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 3130
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| Posted: 07 June 2005 at 12:45am | IP Logged | 8
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Mike Murray wrote:
Stephen Robinson wrote:
| The Final Chapter is considered to have one of the best Spider-Man scenes of all time and we don't see Parker's face. In fact, most of the best Spider-Man scenes show us only Spider-Man's face. I'm not convinced you couldn't make that work on screen. |
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Which scene is this?
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Spider-Man is buried under tons of debris in Dr. Octopus' secret laboratory. Near to him (but not so near to be picked) there is an antidote which can save aunt May's from dying. Spidey is desperate, then he remembers his uncle Ben, his aunt's conditions and, obviously, that "With great powers come great responsibilities". So, he lifts the debris, free himself and saves the day. An epic scene, that authors have mentioned a lot of times (see for example SPECTACULAR-SPIDER MAN #229 and PETER PARKER #98).
This is the cover:
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Francesco Vanagolli
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 3130
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| Posted: 07 June 2005 at 12:46am | IP Logged | 9
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Vincent Valenti wrote:
Like Aunt May
said in the first movie, "you're not Superman, you know"
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Maybe he doesn't know it.
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Mike Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 530
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| Posted: 07 June 2005 at 1:02am | IP Logged | 10
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Thank you Francesco. You know I'd forgotten that was the name of the story with the "trapped under machinery" scene? Even though it's prominent on the cover. I was thinking the reference was to JB's "The Final Chapter" arc in his Spider-Man run!
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Francesco Vanagolli
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 3130
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| Posted: 07 June 2005 at 1:09am | IP Logged | 11
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Mike Murray wrote:
| Thank you Francesco. You know I'd forgotten that was the name of the story with the "trapped under machinery" scene? Even though it's prominent on the cover. I was thinking the reference was to JB's "The Final Chapter" arc in his Spider-Man run! |
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Well, during that story arc a similar event happened. Spider-Man saving the Bugle crying "NEVER AGAIN!" is my favourite scene ever appeared on a Spider-Man comic book. I know that others are better and most important... But I love that scene. Really.
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Thanos Kollias
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2004
Location: Greece
Posts: 5009
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| Posted: 07 June 2005 at 2:17am | IP Logged | 12
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Anyone here remembers what "Rogie said" about X-Men, X2, Hulk and Spider-man? Just curious....
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