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Matt Reed
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 1  

 Brendan Howard wrote:

with Spider-Man doing that too, as he has managed to make it through thousands of rescues in the comics without needing to pull off his mask. And even when his mask had to come off, he always managed to make a web mask that went over the lower part of his face, or whatever.

Then it occurred to me that I wouldn't have been able to see Tobey Maguire's face during the runaway train sequence had the mask remained on, and the scene would have been diminished as a result.

If you have to compromise the integrity of a character in order to achieve a dramatic, emotional result, best not to do that particular scene.  I had a HUGE problem with this in SM2.  The biggest problem of the entire movie for me.  Want to see Maguire act?  Rip off the offending eyepiece, leaving half a mask, rather than strip the entire mask off and exposing himself not only to a train full of people, but to Doc Ock, who was still a threat.  Peter has always been about protecting his family and those close to him.  It's part of who he is, learned immediately after Uncle Ben dies.  There is no way in hell that Peter would allow himself to be seen, putting them in jeopardy, when there are other options available to him.  They were also open to the producers, director and screenwriters as well IF someone thought about character first.  Instead, they thought about their multi-million dollar star and how to get him some more face time.  I know that scene is supposed to pack an emotional wallop, but his very actions diminish it where you, Brendan, say they heighten it.

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Rob Hewitt
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 10:47am | IP Logged | 2  

Usually artists cheat by making the mask, the eyes, etc. change so as to express emotion.

I think the scene on the subway was meant to be symbolic-I didn't particularly like that they all saw the mask, but it was meant to be a scene that these peopole are so happy and thankful, especially since it is just a kid, that they would never reveal what they saw.  Besides the fact he isn't a household name anyway.

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Brad Brickley
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 10:47am | IP Logged | 3  

 Mike O'Brien wrote:

My biggest gripe?  When he lost his webbing, I thought they might make up for the first film, and have him invent web-shooters.  Imagine my dissapointment. 


I remember thinking the same thing when I saw this movie! 

The one thing I really hated was the whole "Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head" thing.  Yuck!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 4  

I suspect the removal of the mask at strategic points had less to do with drama than with dollars. Pay Tobey Maguire umpety-ump millions of dollars, and have huge amounts of screen time played out by stunt men and CGI? Not likely!
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Brendan Howard
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 11:25am | IP Logged | 5  

 Dave Farabee wrote:

 Brendan Howard wrote:
In any case, Lee and Ditko had the advantage of Peter's thought balloons and talking to himself, which are unworkable or laughable on film.

Wouldn't the longstanding tradition of first-person narratives from silver screen gumshoes test this notion? First-person narration is generally used more sparingly than comic thought balloons of old, but the principle's pretty much the same, and seen as recently as SIN CITY. Comes across a little larger-than-life, but wouldn't that be about perfect for the tone of a Spider-Man movie?

Voice-over narrative during a life-or-death action sequence? You really think that would work?

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Brendan Howard
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 6  

 Matt Reed wrote:
If you have to compromise the integrity of a character in order to achieve a dramatic, emotional result, best not to do that particular scene.  I had a HUGE problem with this in SM2.  The biggest problem of the entire movie for me.  Want to see Maguire act?  Rip off the offending eyepiece, leaving half a mask, rather than strip the entire mask off and exposing himself not only to a train full of people, but to Doc Ock, who was still a threat.  Peter has always been about protecting his family and those close to him.  It's part of who he is, learned immediately after Uncle Ben dies.  There is no way in hell that Peter would allow himself to be seen, putting them in jeopardy, when there are other options available to him.  They were also open to the producers, director and screenwriters as well IF someone thought about character first.  Instead, they thought about their multi-million dollar star and how to get him some more face time.  I know that scene is supposed to pack an emotional wallop, but his very actions diminish it where you, Brendan, say they heighten it.

My emotions were heightened by seeing the anquish on Maguire's face, so I don't think this is quite as black-and-white as you imply. It works on a visceral level, even if it doesn't stand up to intellectual examination. 

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 7  

Again, if you have to compromise the character to make a scene work on an emotional, visceral level, it is black and white.  Don't compromise the character.  Make the scene work within the confines of the character or don't do the scene at all, regardless of how it feels emotionally.
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Francesco Vanagolli
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 11:39am | IP Logged | 8  

 John Byrne wrote:
I suspect the removal of the mask at strategic points had less to do with drama than with dollars. Pay Tobey Maguire umpety-ump millions of dollars, and have huge amounts of screen time played out by stunt men and CGI? Not likely!

It could be true. During the  Golden Age of the classic American cinema, in the actors' contracts was specified the number of scenes featuring their face (it could be simpler if I knew how to say in English "primo piano"... When you see only the face of the character, I mean. Sigh). It's true that in the 40s or 50s actors didn't wear spider masks...! Using a mask during the movie is not so good for an actor. 

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Brendan Howard
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 9  

 Matt Reed wrote:
Again, if you have to compromise the character to make a scene work on an emotional, visceral level, it is black and white.  Don't compromise the character.  Make the scene work within the confines of the character or don't do the scene at all, regardless of how it feels emotionally.

Then I guess Peter shouldn't have taken off his mask at the end of "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man." And he should have asked Dr. Strange to erase Mary Jane's knowledge of his identity from her memory.

I'm being snarky, but my point is that there is wiggle room in these thing, and I don't think it was a crime against the character. If he had pulled off his mask in front of a TV camera and announced "I'm Peter Parker," then I would be furious. Peter Parker would never do that. But the idea of Peter throwing all caution to the wind to save a train full of strangers, and watching him nearly die as a result, and being able to see the anquish and exertion -- it all worked for me.

 

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 11:57am | IP Logged | 10  

Yeah, you are being snarky.  It was during a battle with Doc Ock with a train full of people, any one of whom would probably have taken money for a description of Spider-Man under the mask, a man who is in the public eye as a photographer for the Daily Bugle.  I've been a fan of the character for years, Brendan, and rarely has he taken his mask off in any situation, let alone with a ton of on lookers.  The excuse that they don't know who Peter is doesn't wash with me.  The Daily Bugle gets one hint that those people saw the man beneath the mask, and they'd offer thousands for a sketch which they would promptly turn around and publish.  That's not real world dynamics in the superhero world.  That's JJJ.  Sorry, but the Peter Parker I've been reading for 30 years would have found a way to both save the train and keep his identity secret.  That's who he is, not a guy who is willing to tear off his mask when his eyepiece, of all things, gets messed with. You certainly don't screw around with that in order to make a scene more visceral, throwing out character with the bathwater.  That only opens up all sorts of horrible notions if you accept that it's OK to throw out character in favor of a cool scene.
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Rob Hewitt
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 11  

What Matt says is true, but in the world of the movie, the train people were so amazed and grateful, they vowed never to reveal what they know.  Because of that, I would not bring the real world into it.  In the movie world, nobody is revealing anything.

What I would have preferred though, was for only the two kids to have seen his face and to have given him back his mask.  I think it owuld have worked a little better.  Or maybe even to have had to web up his whole face, except for his eyes, afterwards. 

The problem is that the same movie had MJ, Harry, Dr. Octopus, and possibly Aunt May know who he is as well, so it was a bit much.  Especially for a character whose secret identity has been so important over the years.

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 06 June 2005 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 12  

While I don't agree with your first sentence, I agree with all the rest.  Entire issues and storylines have been built around how important it is for Peter to keep his identity.  He must protect Aunt May and those he loves at all costs.  It doesn't matter if it's one person or an entire train car full of people, he would find a way to protect his identity and save them.  That's in character.  That's Peter Parker.  Not a guy who recklessly tears off his mask and exposes himself.  "But Matt, everything was happening so fast!  He just reacted!"  Pshaw.  He's been in far more compromising positions with the same scant seconds to act, and been able to protect who he was without putting others in danger.
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