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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 16023
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | 1
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QUOTE:
| I really hate to see artists/creative people divided against each other, and fans piling on taking sides always seems to make matters more about personality or imagined personality... in other words worse. |
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This is true.
One aspect of this is that (supposedly) it's not about money, and therefore it's about getting some kind of kudos.
Anyone involved in bringing the character to being deserves their credit, but additional kudos regarding Wolverine being a fan favourite should go to Byrne, Claremont and Cockrum (and maybe Miller).
Edited by Peter Martin on 04 April 2024 at 5:28pm
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ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2016
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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Why stop there? He wasn't really 'Weapon X' until Barry Windsor Smith's series, or James Howlett until Paul Jenkins and Andy Kubert's Origin series. Gets a little silly after a while, doesn't?
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Peter Martin
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 3
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I don't see what's silly about giving kudos to people for their contribution.
To say he wasn't Weapon X until BWS did his series doesn't hold true. I don't like the James Howlett stuff, but if anyone deserves credit for it, then the kudos go to Paul Jenkins.
I'm not suggesting (nor did I suggest) credit is given for creating the character to these people. I said additional kudos should go for their contributions and I was at pains to say those that brought the character into being deserve their credit for that.
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Peter Martin
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | 4
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But, and I would hope this is obvious, kudos for the work that went into first making Wolverine a fan favourite can only go to the work that occured before he became a fan favourite...
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ron bailey
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 5
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Previous comment not directed at you in particular, Peter. Just the general topic of slicing and dicing the idea/creation/inspiration/kudos/enhancement this finely. After all, the real value here is in the ownership, and none of them have that.
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | 6
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Rodrigo: Again, "dreaming something up" is not a thing.
That kinda lingo is what confuses things for some people,
Writing the story, developing the character in the context of said story and visually defining what he looks like are.
If not, the ideal thing would be throwing as much names and powers as humanly possible at the wall, it's almost a childlike reasoning.
**
Hulk 180 has exactly 1 panel of Wolverine. He says about 3 things and the issue ends. He appears in what is a faithful recreation of Romita's sketch.
Then, in 181, he fights Hulk, reveals nothing of who he is except that he's fast, tough, Canadian, goes by a couple different code names, and likes to boast. Finally, in Hulk 182, he's removed from the battle by Canadian authorities.
We don't learn what his mutant powers are, we don't learn his name or his origin, we don't learn what he looks like without the mask, we don't learn much more than "He's a Canadian superhero named Wolverine and this is what he looks like."
In Len Wein's mind, the man behind the mask was a teenager who donned gloves with razor sharp claws (seen in Romita's sketch). He might be a product of the High Evolutionary and he has no name or background.
The STORY is all about a man who became Wendigo and fought the Hulk in Canada, upsetting Canadian authorities who sent in their new hero, Wolverine. Wolverine gets a few licks in and then gets knocked out.
What is the STORY that Wein is the true author of and which Thomas has no right to claim? The unused teenage stuff?
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | 7
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I know someone who thinks Wolverine was only "fully realized" when Sam Keith drew him. :^)
The real 'hall of fame' type cred is out there in peoples' collections and being enjoyed. Mine has Byrne Wolverine by a few dozen comics more than anyone else's.
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Rodrigo castellanos
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 8
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What is the STORY that Wein is the true author and which Thomas has no right to claim?
Getting ridiculous now.
The story is what's laid down there, and later many creators expanded upon as usual in comics.
But it'd be a good debate to have, sure. If Wein was alive, of course.
Since he isn't, it's unserious (and tacky) to question the value of such story and/or mind read him in order for an editor to get his credit.
Hope this helps.
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 7:22pm | IP Logged | 9
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Rodrigo:
Getting ridiculous now.
The story is what's laid down there, and later many creators expanded upon as usual in comics.
**
Ridiculous? That's how I find your claim that "dreaming up an idea" is not a thing and that only the act of "writing the story that develops the character (and designing the visual basics of the character)" count as true creation.
Your definition is a moving target-- Wolverine's true creation happens somewhere after Roy Thomas "dreamed up" a Canadian superhero named Wolverine and asked John Romita to draw up a sketch, but (presumably) before Hulk 180 was put together.
What occurred in that period? What "development"? What "story"? What is "laid down there"? Nothing more than a blank slate of a character who is, as Thomas requested, a Canadian superhero named Wolverine that looks like the Romita sketch.
Thomas has told his version of events since long before Wein died. Herb Trimpe completely corroborates his story as do the Hulk issues themselves which contain precious little of Wein's own unused ideas for the character.
Your arguments don't warrant your strident tone. Ideas are indeed "dreamed up" and "dreaming something up" is, indeed, part of creating comics. It's overstating your case to disagree with that.
You and I have literally nothing to do with creating Wolverine. Does Roy Thomas have more to do with creating Wolverine than we do?
Edited by Mark Haslett on 05 April 2024 at 2:44am
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James Johnson
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | 10
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Somewhere in this thread, the Thomas Edison quote fits nicely:
"Vision without execution is hallucination."
Edited by James Johnson on 04 April 2024 at 9:11pm
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Tim O Neill
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 10:13pm | IP Logged | 11
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Peter: "One aspect of this is that (supposedly) it's not about money, and
therefore it's about getting some kind of kudos."
****
It's about the money. Claiming creative inception is how writers and artists get
paid when the character is featured in any media, so they or their estates angle
for credit. That's the inception for all of this, and while we as readers care
about kudos and fairness, that's not why this conversation started and is being
covered by news outlets.
As JB noted, Marvel has established that it's about the first appearance
regardless of contribution or even previous "handshake" agreements, as we
see with Alpha Flight.
As far as "kudos" goes, I agree with Rebecca in that the writers and artists who
defined the characters for you as a reader are most important. For me it is JB.
But beyond my subjective opinion, JB's contribution is objectively much more
than anyone mentioned in this back and forth. Claremont wanted Wolverine off
the book, and JB took him on and gave us the elements that define his
popularity to this day.
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 04 April 2024 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | 12
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Tim: As far as "kudos" goes, I agree with Rebecca in that the writers and artists who defined the characters for you as a reader are most important.
**
100%
IMHO, we need a special shout-out for whoever decided Wolverine should talk out the side of his mouth!
Edited by Mark Haslett on 05 April 2024 at 3:51am
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