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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 12:28am | IP Logged | 1
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Dave Cockrum totally designed Black Cat, Deathgrip, and other characters where he didn't draw the comics in which they appeared... I would hope he got some kind of credit. I can only say I would definitely give creation credit to Romita Sr. on Wolverine, but for Roy Thomas (so far) I don't see it. It sounds like his input would be measured in seconds and verbal whereas Romita Sr.'s was at minumum many minutes and on paper.
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4649
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 12:50am | IP Logged | 2
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Michael Penn wrote:
(Also, did Lee actually assert those two unlimited "regardless" clauses?) |
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From Excelsior! The Amazing Life of Stan Lee (2002), by Stan Lee and George Mair:
"As I’ve mentioned before, I really think I’m being very generous in giving him “cocreator” credit, because I’m the guy who dreamed up the title, the concept, and the characters. But, to be fair to Steve, here’s his point of view. He feels that all I had was an idea. Until it was put down on illustration board and given form and shape, it was nothing more than an idea. An idea in a vacuum is just an idea until the artist brings it to life, sayeth Mr. Ditko.
Personally, I still think the idea is the thing, because an idea can be given to any artist to be brought to life. However, even though I feel he has confused the “creation” of a strip with its “execution,” I’m more than willing to say that Steve cocreated the webswinger with me, and I hope the matter will now be peacefully laid to rest."
*****************************
From the 2007 Jonathan Ross interview with Stan Lee, wherein they were discussing whether Ditko is co-creator of Spider-Man:
Ross: But do you, yourself, believe that he co-created it? Lee: I’m willing to say so. Ross: But that’s not what I’m asking you. Lee: No, and that’s the best answer I can give you. Ross: So it’s a “no” then? Lee: I really think the guy who dreams the thing up created it! You dream it up, and then you give it to anybody to draw it. Ross: But if it’d been drawn differently, it might not’ve been successful, or a hit. Lee: But then I would’ve created something that didn’t succeed. But you made me say that in this documentary that you’re doing, and I’m sorry I said it, because I’m happy to say I consider Steve to be the co-creator. If Steve wants to be called the co-creator, I think he deserves to be called the co-creator, because he had done such a wonderful job.”
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 04 April 2024 at 12:51am
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 31325
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 1:26am | IP Logged | 3
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But Stan didn’t design the look at all and for a comic book, isn’t that kinda important?
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6550
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 5:44am | IP Logged | 4
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Ask Bob Kane.
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Rodrigo castellanos Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Location: Uruguay Posts: 1527
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 5
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Again, "dreaming something up" is not a thing.
That kinda lingo is what confuses things for some people,
Writing the story, developing the character in the context of said story and visually defining what he looks like are.
If not, the ideal thing would be throwing as much names and powers as humanly possible at the wall, it's almost a childlike reasoning.
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4887
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 6
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Until you have that idea on paper, you got nothin'.
Which is the thing about Stan's stance that I just can't agree with. The popularity of these characters does depend heavily on their appearance. It's a visual medium after all.
"I'm happy to say I consider Steve to be the co-creator" is basically saying "I know that I'm really the creator, but I'm willing to say it this way to placate Steve and the fans."
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Jim Burdo Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2020 Location: United States Posts: 377
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 7
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Thomas doesn't claim that he made Wolverine a mutant. From his Forbes interview,
QUOTE:
“I had four requirements for the character: that he be named ‘Wolverine,’ be Canadian, be fierce because wolverines are fierce creatures, and that he be short, because superheroes are usually tall.” |
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He didn't come up with the claws, picturing him like the Golden Age Atom, Al Pratt. Thomas said these things before, but never interpreting them that he was co-creator. The four requirements could make a character as Thomas said, "a very fierce character worth his weight in wildcats, that kind of thing, a little like Wildcat or Atom, only with more power." They could even apply to Puck.
Part 2 has the reaction of Len Wein's widow, with the Herb Trimpe quote. LINK. Trimpe might have been in the office when the assignment was given, but he had no way of knowing what kind of research Wein did for it.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12788
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 8
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Not meaning to drift, and hopefully this gibes with the discussion of Roy Thomas vis-a-vis Wolverine...
There are two aspects to Stan Lee's position on Spider-Man. The first is that without Steve Ditko, the character as we know it would never have existed; but without Stan Lee's initial idea, the character would never have existed at all. The second, crucial to the first, is that Stan Lee claims "I’m the guy who dreamed up the title, the concept, and the characters," which is considerably more than (as you had put it, Jason) a "sparse" "original idea." One surely could challenge both aspects, but that doesn't mean Stan Lee's intent in honestly expressing his opinion was to be deprecating and ignoble.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 16023
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 9
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Jim Burdo wrote:
Trimpe might have been in the office when the assignment was given, but he had no way of knowing what kind of research Wein did for it. |
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Trimpe's verbatim words: "“I was in the office a good part of the time and I was there when John was working on the model for the character. The way it worked was Roy Thomas came up with a concept. It was his. He came up with the name of the character Wolverine and he handed it directly over to John Romita in the bullpen to develop a character sheet, which he gave to Len Wein, who was the writer at the time.”
In this sequence of events that Trimpe is providing first-hand evidence on, where does Wein's purported research fit in?
Trimpe is saying there is a sequence of: No character ----> Name and rough concept given to Romita -----> Name and design given to Wein ------> First story with Wolverine
Trimpe himself was the one guy intimately involved who didn't ask for any credit and I have no reason to doubt anything he said on the matter.
Thomas didn't contribute much really, but from what Trimpe says it's still hard to see how Disney, having looked into the matter of credit, will reverse their decision.
I also think there is a fair amount of special pleading in what Christine Valada is saying. On the one had she tells us Len "always called himself the writer-creator, as distinct from the artist-creator" but then claims Wein contributed to Romita's design. No one there at the time has suggested this, but now -- in an interview where she talks about stolen valour -- she floats the idea that Wein actually did someone of the design work.
Does anyone know if Incredible Hulks 180 and 181 were done via the Marvel Method?
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Ron Grant Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 December 2016 Location: Canada Posts: 243
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 10
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Seriously, can people here not work out how to post a link that actually works–----------------- Seriously. do you need to be a dick about it? It was a bad link and has been fixed
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | 11
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Roy Thomas should have written things down. I guess that's a downside of the Marvel method that often it begins from talking something over. Stan Lee should've learned to draw if he'd wanted all the credit. It's not like there aren't loads of great examples of one person doing all of a work themselves which is the greatest thing about comics; that that is possible. I think we can see fairly clearly where Jack Kirby checked on on giving input at a certain point into The Fantastic Four, and contrariwise how the comics he wrote and edited himself were lacking something in the narration and dialogue department.
I really hate to see artists/creative people divided against each other, and fans piling on taking sides always seems to make matters more about personality or imagined personality... in other words worse.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 16023
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
Seriously. do you need to be a dick about it? It was a bad link and has been fixed |
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Yes, it was a bad link. And anyone complaining it was a bad link is a dick, right?
Edited to amend some questionable syntax.
Edited by Peter Martin on 04 April 2024 at 5:19pm
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