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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6550
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 9:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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Along with the conventional wisdom that publishers will "steal ideas" should come the hard truth: "just not YOURS."
Andy Olsen has himself exercised because he had the idea of naming a costumed hero, "Wolverine".
So many people are convinced they've been robbed because they just don't understand how any of this works.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2386
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 9:38pm | IP Logged | 2
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People keep saying that Roy Thomas is making this grab only after everybody else involved is dead. The Forbes article Peter Martin gives the link to above is an interesting read, including this account from Herb Trimpe:
Valada (Wein's widow) says Wein remained consistent in his account of the character’s creation since the beginning. While acknowledging that Thomas had assigned him to introduce a Canadian character named Wolverine in The Incredible Hulk, which Wein was writing, Wein said he did all the original research that shaped Wolverine’s powers and personality. Wein, who studied art in college, claimed he even contributed to John Romita’s character design.
This last point is disputed by Herb Trimpe, the artist who drew the first Wolverine stories, who died in 2015. In an interview that took place in 2012, Trimpe said: “I was in the office a good part of the time and I was there when John [Romita] was working on the model for the character. The way it worked was Roy Thomas came up with a concept. It was his. He came up with the name of the character Wolverine and he handed it directly over to John Romita in the bullpen to develop a character sheet, which he gave to Len Wein who was the writer at the time.”
Trimpe continued, “I don’t want to take away anybody's ability to make a few bucks, but it was it Roy's concept and John's character design. The writer in my opinion gave the character a voice and actually collaborated with the artist in terms of bringing the character to life, which is no small thing, but it's not really the originator of the concept.”
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6550
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | 3
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Well, just because some guy was there when Roy gave the assignment to John Romita and worked with Len to draw Hulk 180-182, now we're expected to take the word of Herb Trimpe?
I'm glad this isn't something I have to decide because it just got complicated.
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4887
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 10:18pm | IP Logged | 4
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I Thomas was telling Romita "I want him to have (details of general appearance)" and then Romita went and drew the original character deisgn and then Wein went and added the details about being a Canadian government agent, etc. I can see where all three accounts are true. But if Thomas is just saying "Give a character named Wolverine and make him Canadian." All he really has is a concept. It would be like me saying "Make me a car that runs on water and make it red." doesn't make me a part of the creative process.
I also don't think tacking on a dual identity and filling indetails about his history make you part of the character creation. That makes you part of the process of serialized fiction.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16513
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 11:24pm | IP Logged | 5
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If it was simply that Roy Thomas came up with the name, I wouldn't tend to give him credit in my own mind, but as vintage interviews with Roy Thomas, Herb Trimpe, Dave Cockrum, and even Len Wein, himself, has told it in published interviews, Thomas came up with the not just the name, but (again, according to more than one source) the stature (short), his temperament, that he was a mutant, and in these accounts, that he was Canadian.
John Romita, Sr., designed the look. Not clear on the claws, except that Wein considered them part of the suit. So, what did Wein contribute that wasn't already brought to him? Seriously asking. "Weapon X" as a code-name?
I have known literally for decades about Roy Thomas's involvement because it was mentioned in a number of articles and interviews I read since childhood, and Wein didn't contest those accounts during that period that I remember. I'm not saying Wein doesn't deserve his credit as co-creator, but I do think Thomas deserves credit, too.
Thomas never suggests Wolverine (and the details he came up with), then the character as we know it does not ever exist. Yes, others like Claremont, Cockrum, and JB, expanded on the character, but without Roy coming up with the basic character and handing it off to Wein, there would not be THE Wolverine as we know it.
And, no, the fella who won the FOOM contest, who also wants to take credit for Wolverine's Admantium skeleton, apparently, is not the creator of the Wolverine we know. He truly did only come up with a name. Roy did more than that.
Heck, I copyrighted my design of a character I named "Carnage" in 1986. I have never thought about suing Marvel, because I'd lose, as I knew even back when that you can't copyright a name, only trademark it. And I didn't trademark the name. And, my Carnage looked nothing like what came from Marvel.
I even came up with a character named the Canadian Shield while in grade school, after having learned about the mountain range in Canada. I connected "shield" to Captain America in my mind, so being a comic book fan it seemed natural to use Canadian Shield for a superhero. Many years later, JB mentions here in the forum that he thought of using that name for an early version of Vindicator/Guardian, as I recall.
So, yeah, if it was simply that Roy came up with the name, I wouldn't think that's strong enough. It was more than that, though.
Edited by Matt Hawes on 03 April 2024 at 11:27pm
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 11:26pm | IP Logged | 6
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This is the problem with folk songs, who started one may've been entirely forgotten so whoever was the person who had some version of it when it was finally recorded down on paper or audio medium like Huddie Ledbetter (Leadbelly) might be credited, or the ever reliable 'Traditional' after which someone can claim 'Arrangement by' for their own unique take.
If Wolverine were a folk song it might be credited circa 1979-80 (Thomas/Romita Sr./Wein/Trimpe/Cockrum, Arr. Claremont/Byrne). I guess that's not going to happen.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16513
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 11:39pm | IP Logged | 7
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I will add this one last thing: While, obviously, Wein's widow doesn't want Thomas getting even a co-credit, apparently regardless of whether he actually gets any monetary gain for it, I'm fairly certain Disney would LOVE not to give EITHER any money (or actually even just credit. Ask Ub Iwerks, or his heirs). So, if they are acknowledging in ANY way that Roy Thomas had ANY involvement in the creation of Wolverine, they aren't doing this because they're ran by a bunch of sweethearts.
I guarantee theu have ran things by their legal department and figured it's best to cover their butts to fend off any perceived potential lawsuits over the matter. Because, you can bet your sweet bippy if they found their wasn't enough evidence to suggest they could owe Thomas a co-creator credit, they wouldn't give him one. It's all about the money, and I am certain the don't want to give up more than they absolutely have to in credit or payments.
Edited by Matt Hawes on 03 April 2024 at 11:41pm
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Rick Whiting Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Posts: 2227
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | 8
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Wolverine was created by Andy Olsen who submitted the character as part of a contest by the marvel publication FOOM . Marvel used the contest to swipe ideas from children Roy Thomas is getting credit why not him?
___________________
With the possible exception of the name "Wolverine", I would argue that Olsen and Marvel swiped ideas for Wolverine from the 1968 Captain America novel CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE GREAT GOLD STEAL
https://tombrevoort.com/2020/10/11/blah-blah-blog-the-great- gold-steal/#:~:text=Rather%20than%20getting%20his%20powers,n othing%20special%20about%20Cap's%20shield%E2%80%93
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Rodrigo castellanos Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Location: Uruguay Posts: 1527
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | 9
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But if Thomas is just saying "Give a character named Wolverine and make him Canadian." All he really has is a concept. It would be like me saying "Make me a car that runs on water and make it red." doesn't make me a part of the creative process.
Thank you.
It really seems some people really struggle to understand what creative work actually is. That would be a "briefing" in any creative process, not a creative act on itself.
I do acknowledge that Marvel has historically muddled this issue. Stan was of this mind, and Thomas was his protege after all.
Reminds me of this Key & Peele sketch, based on Stan's reality show ("Who wants to be a superhero?"):
It's obviously a joke based on Stan's later years and I mean no disrespect but it illustrates the issue pretty well: throwing names and powers around is not a creative act.
A character is not a name and powers, it's a STORY. If it were, guys like the kid that won that Marvel contest would be top creators.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6550
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 11:57pm | IP Logged | 10
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Herb Trimpe said, “I don’t want to take away anybody's ability to make a few bucks, but it was it Roy's concept and John's character design. The writer in my opinion gave the character a voice and actually collaborated with the artist in terms of bringing the character to life, which is no small thing, but it's not really the originator of the concept.”
How does anyone think what Trimpe meant was, "Thomas just said "Give a character named Wolverine and make him Canadian." The way you might say, "Make me a car that runs on water and make it red"?
If that's what Trimpe meant, why do you think he went so far out of his way to go on the record about it even though he worried it might mess up the money end of the attribution?
And I'm sorry, Rodrigo, but what part of the "STORY" did John Romita contribute? Did he not co-create Wolverine?
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Rodrigo castellanos Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Location: Uruguay Posts: 1527
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 12:04am | IP Logged | 11
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And I'm sorry, Rodrigo, but what part of the "STORY" did John Romita contribute? Did he not co-create Wolverine?
He defined the character visually, I'd say.
Co-Creation in comics usually means the guy that wrote the story and the guy who drew it, who is usually the same guy that designed the character.
In this case, it's different. As there is irrefutable evidence that Romita designed the character visually and Trimpe followed that design in the actual comic, I'd still credit Romita as creator.
But I admit this case in particular is a complicated one. Kirby claimed credit on Spider-Man once too, and I think he was wrong on that one. Each case has certain complications in this muddled up medium.
But an editor is not a creator, ever. I'll stand by that.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6550
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Posted: 04 April 2024 at 12:18am | IP Logged | 12
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Between the time there was nothing and when there was something stands the creator(s).
The line between creation and extrapolation has to be drawn somewhere.
The simple cases are all the same.
The complicated cases are all unique!
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