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Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 1527
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| Posted: 31 March 2024 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | 1
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As Waid says in the article, it's funny this comes up when all other involved parties are dead. It's not that he didn't have 40+ years to make his claim, he just must've felt now the time was right.
Even if I thought an editor could be a co-creator (I don't), the timing would still invalidate the entire claim. A person in the right doesn't act like this.
Disgraceful.
Roy mentions that he wished he had taken Len Wein off that particular issue of THE INCREDIBLE HULK and just wrote the thing himself (as he was the series writer not too long before--twice I believe). It was not a credit grab, it was more like "Oh well, that's the way it goes."
Your tone seems to imply this as a good natured statement.
This confuses me.
Sure, leave the editor out of things where he just makes suggestions or otherwise "just does his job," but this seems more like "I came up with this idea, write a story about it."
Not to get too Steve Ditko-ey, but execution IS creation.
"Coming up with ideas" isn't a thing, laying them down is.*
And again, if one were to insist on this ridiculous notion, at least one should have the decency to do so in front of the credited creator's face and see how it goes.
He had 40+ years to do so. He chose not to.
'Nuff said.
* I even find the term itself offensive, you "come up" with the idea, like it was some kind of fortuitous accident.
Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 31 March 2024 at 6:55pm
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Vinny Valenti
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Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8163
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| Posted: 31 March 2024 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | 2
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Cockrum deserves co-creator credit as well, IMO. He created his alter-ego, and had a hand (ha) in the claws being a part of him.
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Koroush Ghazi
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Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
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| Posted: 31 March 2024 at 9:03pm | IP Logged | 3
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Roy Thomas’ claim seems tenuous at best… perhaps this is why he was
dubbed “Rascally Roy” by Stan the Man ;)
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Robert Bradley
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Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31 March 2024 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | 4
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There are many characters that had drastic changes after their introduction - Him/Adam Warlock. Captain Mar-Vell. Carol Danvers. Wolverine. Henry Pym. Moon Knight. The Beast.
The inclination to include people who introduce dramatic changes in a character as a character's creator is a slippery slope. If you give the Ant-Man suit to a new character (Scott Lang) is this creating something different "passing the torch" is one thing if a character is inactive but hoe many Captain Americas do we need? How many Spider Mans? Hawkeyes? Thors?. What about making a derivative character out of a supporting character (such as Carol Danvers/Ms. Marvel or Thunderbolt Ross/Red Hulk) is that really creating something? Or least creative of all, introducing the offspring/clone/immitator of an established character (Miles Morales, Scarlet Spider. Skaar, Kate Bishop, Iron Heart, Hobgblin, etc.).
I will admit, having Captain America quit and having others try to fill his shoes (and fail miserably) was fun the first time in 1974 because it was new and it was also a good way to show that Captain America wasn't just a costume and that he wasn't replaceable. It should be that way with most heroes. What makes them the most interesting isn't their powers, it's the complete character. And if they think bringing in another teenager to become a new teenage Spider-Man is a long-term solution to any relatibility problems, they're mistaken.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36132
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| Posted: 01 April 2024 at 5:46am | IP Logged | 5
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Robert Bradley wrote:
| And if they think bringing in another teenager to become a new teenage Spider-Man is a long-term solution to any relatibility problems, they're mistaken. |
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The creation (or whatever you would call it) of Miles Morales would seriously undermine this statement. He’s wildly popular among a rather large set of fans. He’s carried his own series (multiple), was a supporting character in one video game that spawned a highly successful DLC-turned-full-blown-game where he was the star and then was in the sequel to the original where he was an equal player and that game sold a bajillion copies. Oh and he’s the star of two animated movies that have grossed over a billion dollars in combined box office. I personally know teenagers who play the video game because of Miles, not Peter. To deny his popularity, now more than a decade old, feels suspect at best.
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Eric Jansen
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Joined: 27 October 2013
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| Posted: 01 April 2024 at 7:28am | IP Logged | 6
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This didn't just spring up. In a CBR article from 2019, Roy Thomas gives the lowdown on the creation of Wolverine. He was the editor-in-chief at the time, looking for a way to increase Canadian readership. Quote:
"I told Len Wein to write the character because I had liked the accent he had given Brother Voodoo earlier (Jamaican for a Haitian character, but at least it had character, and Len did it well). I gave it to him because he was one of Marvel's best writers, and because I was busy just being editor and writing the various Conan comics. I had only three requirements of the Wolverine, all of which I gave to Len in my office: (1) He was Canadian, and announced as such right away. (2) He was short, because a wolverine is a small animal. (3) He had a quick temper, because wolverines are known for being fierce and taking on beasts far bigger than they are."
That doesn't seem to me like a guy trying to steal credit, it sounds like a guy (who, in his ALTER EGO magazine, has been painstakingly recording the history of comics from the 30's to at least the 70's for decades) doing his job as EiC coming up with tons of new ideas for an expanding Marvel Comics. And a guy giving a lot of credit to "one of Marvel's best writers" Len Wein. Instead of accusing the guy of "waiting until the other guys were dead" before acting "disgraceful" perhaps he was being a gentleman and letting Len Wein take the lion's share of the credit.
At the same time, he was partially or fully initiating DEFENDERS, MAN-THING, WEREWOLF BY NIGHT, TOMB OF DRACULA, WAR OF THE WORLDS/KILLRAVEN, THE CAT, RED SONJA, IRON FIST, LUKE CAGE, MORBIUS, CAROL DANVERS, INVADERS, RED WOLF, GHOST RIDER, all sorts of characters in MARVEL PREMIERE, and new formats and ideas like SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP and WHAT IF--while at the same time bringing in and shepherding things like CONAN THE BARBARIAN and STAR WARS, and prepping the new X-MEN. And that's after creating great characters like THE VISION, ULTRON, VALKYRIE, YELLOWJACKET, THUNDRA, DOC SAMSON, and a ton of others. What's so hard to believe about one more?
It's just a guy doing his job at a time when comic book production was fast and furious and it wasn't so much about who did what but let's just get the books out there. But I can understand wanting to set the record straight.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 01 April 2024 at 9:19am
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Steve Coates
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Joined: 17 November 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 818
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| Posted: 01 April 2024 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 7
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"...looking for a way to increase Canadian readership"
Bullshit! There is no possible way to increase Canadian or any other readership over a two issue period given the production procedures of 1974. There might have been a lessening of the returns for issues of Incredible Hulk #180 and #181, but Marvel would not have known of the influence the character of Wolverine had on the sale figures for months.
The Incredible Hulk #180 with cover month of October and an on-sale date of July 2, 1974, would have been in production up to three months prior to the on-sale date with a production quantity already established and percentage thereof distended for the Canadian Market. The issue would have been on the market for 4 months before being pulled for returns.
The Canadian market was and is very small compared to the US market and really wouldn't see much increase sales over such a short period.
Marvel published about 60 books with the October cover month, it was very much a shotgun approach to the market.
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 01 April 2024 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 8
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Most Canadian fans I knew would have taken at least some small degree of offense at an American company creating a Canadian character—especially one with no real links to the Canadian culture or environment. (Worth remembering that Wolverine took his original colors from a football team based in Michigan! That was no accident.) I’ll admit, seeing that HULK cover on the stands, my first reaction was to roll my eyes.
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Andrew Bitner
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Joined: 01 June 2004
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| Posted: 01 April 2024 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | 9
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Would it be inappropriate to write the credit as
WOLVERINE created by Len Wein and Herb Trimpe with Roy Thomas and John Romita Sr.?
EDITED: WOLVERINE created by Len Wein, John Romita Sr., and Herb Trimpe with Roy Thomas?
Edited by Andrew Bitner on 02 April 2024 at 7:17pm
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 01 April 2024 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 10
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Romita deserves more than a “with”.
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ron bailey
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Joined: 16 October 2016
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01 April 2024 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | 11
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Most Canadian fans I knew would have taken at least some small degree of offense at an American company creating a Canadian character—especially one with no real links to the Canadian culture or environment. (Worth remembering that Wolverine took his original colors from a football team based in Michigan! That was no accident.) ..................... I always did wonder if he was the first Canadian super-hero ... and whether the original intent was towards the mascot (maybe the creator was from Michigan?) and the Canadian association came later.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 01 April 2024 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 12
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There were a small swarm of Canadian superheroes published during WW2, when an embargo on foreign publications prevented American comics legally crossing the border. Printed in black and white, these decidedly primitive items were known as the Canadian Whites, and faded quickly into oblivion once the American comics returned. I know about them due to a brief resurgence of interest in the Seventies, when at least one history was published. (One of the characters was Nelvana of the Northern Lights, supposedly an incarnation of an Inuit goddess. Pay very close attention, and you might deduce she was Snowbird’s mother.)
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