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Topic: Roy Thomas co-created Wolverine…? Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 05 April 2024 at 4:06am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Ridiculous? That's how I find your claim that "dreaming up an idea" is not a thing and that only the act of "writing the story that develops the character (and designing the visual basics of the character)" count as true creation. 

You can see for yourself in that Bleeding Cool article that a lot of comic creators ranging from Mark Waid to Rob Liefeld to Neil Gaiman seem to agree with this view.

We must be a ridiculous bunch.

Also, the "Ridiculous? I think you're ridiculous!" is textbook playground level projection, come on.


Your definition is a moving target--

Projecting again.


Your arguments don't warrant your strident tone. 

And that's a strikeout!






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Jim Burdo
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Posted: 05 April 2024 at 10:27am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

 Peter Martin wrote:
Trimpe's verbatim words: "“I was in the office a good part of the time and I was there when John was working on the model for the character. The way it worked was Roy Thomas came up with a concept. It was his. He came up with the name of the character Wolverine and he handed it directly over to John Romita in the bullpen to develop a character sheet, which he gave to Len Wein, who was the writer at the time.”

In this sequence of events that Trimpe is providing first-hand evidence on, where does Wein's purported research fit in?

That's not really first hand knowledge. Trimpe just says he was in the office a lot of the time, not that he was looking over Romita's shoulder. His account of the sequence is his supposition since he doesn't know if any communication took place between Romita and Wein. Wein seems to have come up with the claws being adamantium, if not the claws themselves.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 05 April 2024 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 Jim Burdo wrote:
Trimpe just says he was in the office a lot of the time, not that he was looking over Romita's shoulder. His account of the sequence is his supposition since he doesn't know if any communication took place between Romita and Wein.

He doesn't just say he was there a lot of the time. He says he was there when John was working on the model sheet. 

And we can't give weight to Trimpe's observation from being in the room at the time, but  we can give weight to some supposed communication between Romita and Wein? Jim, this is special pleading.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 05 April 2024 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Rodrigo: Also, the "Ridiculous? I think you're ridiculous!" is textbook playground level projection, come on.

**
One appeal to authority (@ "Bleeding Cool"!) and three personal jibes. Great discussion!

Clipping off all context does make my remarks less cogent.
It also makes trading posts with you pointless. Sorry I wasted my time.

Edited by Mark Haslett on 05 April 2024 at 9:09pm
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John Wickett
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Posted: 05 April 2024 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Interesting discussion.

"As JB noted, Marvel has established that it's about the first appearance regardless of contribution or even previous "handshake" agreements, as we see with Alpha Flight."

I think that's certainly true with regard to who officially gets credit, which is essential when it comes to the financial side of this, because there has to be a consistent standard that determines who is entitled to compensation.

But in terms of "kudos" or who we give credit to as fans, I think its fair to look at the creative process through a broader lense than that.

I agree with those who have characterized Roy's contribution as being "part of an editor's job," but I don't think that should automatically be the end of the discussion.  Creative direction from an editor may contribute very little to the development of a character, or quite a lot.  In this instance, it sounds like Roy Thomas contributed at least as much, if not more, than Len Wein with regard to the substance of the character, while Len's story determined the context in which he first appeared.

Personally, I would acknowledge all three of Thomas, Wein, and Romita as co-creators.

Also, since we're talking about "kudos" there is room for some nuance regarding how much credit everyone receives.  Saying they are co-creators need not imply that all of them are equally important.  

I also like the idea of acknowledging the contributions of subsequent creators in some contexts; especially now that these characters are appearing in so many types of media.  As has been pointed out by other posters, sometimes the extrapolations that follow the original idea end up being just as important to the final version of a character; and in some cases moreso, as with the adamantium skeleton, vs. a glove with claws.

I remember there being a similar discussion involving the Winter Soldier after Brubaker was upset about not being acknowledged as a creator in the movie credits.  Clearly, Brubaker had no hand in creating Bucky Barnes, but his extrapolation is essential to who the character is now, and the contribution is worthy of acknowledgment.


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Peter Martin
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Posted: 05 April 2024 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I think it's also interesting how we come at these differently according to the medium. Even with an equally visual medium, such as cinema, it can work differently. For example, most people would accept James Cameron created the Terminator... But it was Stan Winston who designed the iconic metal endoskeleton.

The accepted creator of Boba Fett is George Lucas. Presumably his contribution was little more than... There's a bounty hunter called Boba Fett and he is a Mandalorian. The actual look of Boba Fett would come down Ralph McQuarrie and Joe Johnston.

Also interesting to hear the arguments that an editor is a staff job and shouldn't therefore get credit. And yet it was in his staff job as art director that John Romita designed Wolverine and no-one is arguing he shouldn't get credit.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 05 April 2024 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Without Ralph McQuarrie and John Williams Star Wars would just be a Flash Gordon remake (albeit minus Brian Blessed with wings).
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 05 April 2024 at 10:37pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I wish Wally Wood would get credit for Daredevil.  The yellow and red suit was discarded immediately and Wood's redesign has lasted (with a few "rests") for sixty years!

Brubaker should of course get credit for the Winter Soldier.  It's a new name and design that's trademarked.  What about Ronin?  That's a character that was supposed to be revealed as one established character, but they changed it before the reveal.  (And changed it a few more times since then.)  If James Rhodes wears the Iron Man suit, are David Michelinie & John Romita Jr. suddenly the creators of Iron Man?  Or do Stan Lee & company get credit for Rhodes?

I see that the creators of Iron Man are listed as Stan Lee, Larry Lieber, Don Heck, Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko!  I get the impression that the situation with Iron Man was very similar to Wolverine.  One writer comes up with the idea (Stan/Roy), one writer adds some indispensible elements in the character's first appearance (Lieber/Wein), one artist does the initial design (Kirby/Romita), and one artist draws the first story (Heck/Trimpe)--only Heck gets credit and Trimpe doesn't, presumably because Heck designed Tony Stark and other origin characters.  But Ditko gets credit?!?  Deservedly so, since his redesign is practically a reinvention--but Kane & Cockrum DON'T get credit for finetuning Wolverine or giving him a face?

If Ditko gets credit for Iron Man, Wally Wood should totally get credit for Daredevil.


Edited by Eric Jansen on 05 April 2024 at 10:40pm
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Jason K Fulton
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Posted: 05 April 2024 at 11:37pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

James Rhodes was created by Michelinie and JB.
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 06 April 2024 at 6:36am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

One appeal to authority (@ "Bleeding Cool"!) and three personal jibes. Great discussion!

Nothing personal.

Again, you might be projecting (also I wasn't appealing to "@Bleeding Cool"'s authority but the creators whose opinions were gathered for that article, but you know that). 

But hey, Roy Thomas is most likely getting the credit, so you won. Be happy :)


I agree with those who have characterized Roy's contribution as being "part of an editor's job," but I don't think that should automatically be the end of the discussion.  

I do, but that's a personal opinion, obviously.

But other than that, the fact that Len Wein is no longer with us is undeniable.

It may not "end the discussion" for some of you guys evidently, but it kinda does for me on a fundamental, ethical level.

Almost fifty (50!) years later, the guy brings up some dreaming up, when nobody can contest him. 

I feel for Wein's wife and family, that's all.




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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 06 April 2024 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

During the course of this discussion, I looked up Ray Palmer/the Atom, Barry Allen/the Flash, Hal Jordan/Green Lantern, Katar Hol/Hawkman, and the Justice League of America.  Ever since I was a kid, I knew that Julius Schwartz was the guiding force in the creation of these characters.  Looking them up, I see that he is not officially considered a creator or even co-creator.  (And, yes, you could call the last two "updates" or "reboots" but, really, the Silver Age Atom, GL, and the Flash are very much their own characters.  If the Golden Age trademarks had lapsed, you could have done these concepts at another publisher and nobody would say they are the same characters, any more than Mar-Vell is the Big Red Cheese.)

Now you can say that "the editor was just doing his job!" and "how dare you take away credit" from the writers Schwartz hired to realize his vision, but pretend instead that I am a new reader who's really interested in these features.  I really want to know who created what--I shouldn't have to read four paragraphs into an article on their history before I find out about Schwartz, or buy a $30 book on the history of comics.  I shouldn't have to search this information out.  It should be there for anyone interested to see.

I WANT to know which characters Schwartz had a hand in creating!  I WANT to know to what extent Stan Lee had a hand in creating Man-Thing or Luke Cage!  If Martin Goodman had a hand in creating anybody, I want to KNOW that--not because I have any affection for Martin Goodman, but just because I'm a fan who wants the whole picture.

Hell yes, Roy Thomas deserves whatever credit he deserves for initiating the creation of Wolverine or whoever else he was "just the editor" for!  And while you're at it, give credit to Julius Schwartz too.


Edited by Eric Jansen on 06 April 2024 at 8:20am
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Jim Burdo
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Posted: 06 April 2024 at 10:12am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 Peter Martin wrote:
He doesn't just say he was there a lot of the time. He says he was there when John was working on the model sheet. 

And we can't give weight to Trimpe's observation from being in the room at the time, but  we can give weight to some supposed communication between Romita and Wein? Jim, this is special pleading.

To quote The Princess Bride, you keep using that word, but I don't think you know what it means. All Herb Trimpe's observations of John Romita Sr. working on the model sheet show is that Romita Sr. was the one who did it, which wasn't in doubt. Trimpe doesn't even say he talked to him. Trimpe and we have no idea of what creative inputs he had. It's not special pleading to speculate if Wein was responsible for the claws. Thomas's concept doesn't mention them, just referring to straightforward superhero sluggers like Wildcat and the Atom. Romita Sr was a Silver Age artist, and lethal weapons like claws didn't become in vogue for two decades. 

As for what else Wein brought to the character in Hulk #181, he established that he was 
1) fearless to the point of being foolhardy, challenging both the Hulk and the Wendigo
2) vicious, immediately using his lethal claws on the Hulk
3) opportunistic, moving to the Wendigo because he'd thought he'd be easier.
All of these are classic traits of RL wolverines, which he might have found with the research his widow mentioned. They also make Wolverine more of an anti-hero as opposed to the heroic Wildcat and Atom, two decades before anti-heroes became popular.
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