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Paul Kimball Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2174
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Posted: 13 July 2020 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 1
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I'm not sure about that John, I've known a lot of faithful who've told me the reason they do good is the lord and that all good comes from him. I can only assume in the absence of such structure they might be less than altruistic.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132548
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Posted: 13 July 2020 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 2
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Your opinion of people must be lower than mine—which takes some doing!
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John Wickett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 July 2016 Location: United States Posts: 826
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Posted: 13 July 2020 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 3
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People have certainly used religion to justify a lot of terrible things. But if you took religion away, would those same people find different reasons to do the same things?
One way to answer that question is by appealing to Keynesian economic theory. Keynes postulates that human behavior is predictable because we tend to be self interested rational actors.
This means people will generally act in a way that leads to the greatest perceived personal benefits. So anything that increases the benefits or decreases the costs associated with an action increases the probability that an individual will choose that action.
Example:
If I was a plantation owner in the colonial south, I would benefit economically from being a slave holder. But one of the "costs" (lets call it the moral or emotional cost) would be the pain of living with the idea that I am doing something evil (Jefferson wrote extensively about his struggle with this). So I might reduce that cost by using religion to justify my actions. Because if I can somehow claim the moral high ground, then I can feel good about having slaves.
Now take religion out of the equation. I still want the economic benefits derived from slavery, but I need another way to reduce the moral/emotional cost. Enter science, and all of the studies that once showed how blacks were genetically inferior to whites (which of course, created the idea of the "white man's burden" that Kipling wrote about- an obligation on the part of whites to civilize the "little brown brothers of the world." for their own benefit)
So here's the question: Absent religion, if people behave the same way, and just find other ways to rationalize bad behavior that they currently justify by appealing to religion, is religion really the problem?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132548
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Posted: 13 July 2020 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 4
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Yes.
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Paul Kimball Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2174
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Posted: 13 July 2020 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | 5
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Your opinion of people must be lower than mine—which takes some doing! ++++++++++ I'm actually pretty optimistic but I supposed I've had so many people of faith tell me that god is the reason they do good things that I may have taken them too literally.
Edited by Paul Kimball on 13 July 2020 at 3:35pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132548
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Posted: 13 July 2020 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | 6
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I’m remembering a humorous article in SKEPTICAL INQUIRER. One of the writers for THE SIMPSONS postulated a future in which scientists accidentally proved there was no God. Profound effects across the World. The Vatican becomes a theme park. And a man from Texas who had not murdered his hated wife because of his fear of God now didn’t murder her because of his fear of the Texas State Correctional Facility. We tend to forget that the Laws came first, then we invented the gods to back ‘em up.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 13 July 2020 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | 7
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I guess it really is a bad time for almost all statues, and many cartoons to boot. I admit... I guess I have been ignorant about actual threats to Jesus statuary! Some people sure have a lot of free time to find something to focus on as someone else's mote needing plucking.
By the way, if there are any U.S. military bases or craft named after a Confederate figure... WTF? I mean, how the heck does that even happen? Inherited from the actual Confederacy post-Civil War is about the only way I can see it taking place. So Trump is the fearless defender of them if they exist as well as statues of Jesus in general (but if they are that Robin Hood guy with Mona Lisa's eyes and the offended say that could not be Jesus, isn't that self defeating? Couldn't a simple message left near it reading "Not Jesus" suffice?)
Christianity is a foreign religion to Europe and Africa, but so would be Islam and Buddhism, but in the earliest days of the church there were people saying it was something only for people who had been Jews, I assume they lost out to the marketing department on that one!
You'd have to have a planet with zero religions ever to get a planet now with zero religion, if there was ever anything, no matter how fanciful, there will be people who will think there might be something to it, especially if it stays around for even a little while. I read a theory once that the names of the Greek Pantheon could be very close to names in prehistoric South Asia for natural forces and substances. Over time that anchor got forgotten and they became these fanciful anthropomorphized deities. Then again, Hinduism, what little I know of it, seems to be about various forces and even moral or amoral concepts personified. When does one go from understanding an analogy or metaphor to becoming a literalist? Future archeologists dig up a preserved Toys R Us and see miniature votive figurines dedicated to the Goddess Barbie?
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Jim Burdo Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2020 Location: United States Posts: 361
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Posted: 13 July 2020 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | 8
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John Wickett wrote:
I believe that when Trump mentioned statues of Jesus being targeted next, he was specifically referring to comments being made by Shaun King. |
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That's why I mentioned Shaun King, and had a link to those same Twitter comments.
Rebecca Jansen wrote:
So Trump is the fearless defender of them if they exist as well as statues of Jesus in general (but if they are that Robin Hood guy with Mona Lisa's eyes and the offended say that could not be Jesus, isn't that self defeating? Couldn't a simple message left near it reading "Not Jesus" suffice?) |
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Is Michaelangelo's Pieta too "Robin Hood", or can it be spared demolition?
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Jim Burdo Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2020 Location: United States Posts: 361
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Posted: 14 July 2020 at 1:25am | IP Logged | 9
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SUE ME, SUE YOU BLUES: The Band Lady A (The Artists Formerly Known as Lady Antebellum) Files Lawsuit Against Singer Anita ‘Lady A’ White. “‘Today we are sad to share that our sincere hope to join together with Anita White in unity and common purpose has ended,’ the group said in a statement. ‘She and her team have demanded a $10 million payment, so reluctantly we have come to the conclusion that we need to ask a court to affirm our right to continue to use the name Lady A, a trademark we have held for many years.’”Anita White is African-American and is now being sued for a white band's virtue-signalling.
Edited by Jim Burdo on 14 July 2020 at 1:25am
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14825
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Posted: 14 July 2020 at 2:44am | IP Logged | 10
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Conservative media is so weird (Rapid Fire Edition):
- Lady A: the throughline is not a cautionary tale of virtue-signaling, but that a southern band steeped in white privilege continues to be steeped in white privilege
- Cancel Hamilton: #CancelHamilton started trending because a few people said it on Twitter and then everyone started talking about how stupid that was. That's even the take of the libertarian magazine Reason, a publication that usually partakes in the Cancel Culture fear mongering.
Criticism of HAMILTON's glossing over of slave ownership has existed since the play first came out. And yet, it continues to exists. It's almost as if progressives can consider a criticism as a path to discussion and not a demand to remove something. *gasp*
- Robert L Johnson: It's hilarious how conservative media tries to bury the lede with regard to Johnson arguing for $14 Trillion in reparations for every descendant of black slaves. In that context, of course he'd see that toppling statues is an empty gesture.
And even among those who support the removal of Confederate monuments, it's only a first step, coming nowhere close to fixing race relations.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 14 July 2020 at 8:00am | IP Logged | 11
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Is "Haunted Tank" still being published? I got a hunch that's out of the picture for good now.
But then again, "Enemy Ace" had quite a few missions back in his day - MUCH closer to the present than the Haunted Tank is. And that war has been noted to being horrible, monstrous, and the war to end all wars. Of course, there's military war and there's sociological war...
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Jim Burdo Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2020 Location: United States Posts: 361
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Posted: 16 July 2020 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 12
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There are two Haunted Tank stories in the DC Goes to War collection, including the first one. Mention of it has been removed from the solicitations on Amazon, but it still shows up in a google search. There's also Enemy Ace fighting on the Nazi side.
How about Jonah Hex? He fought on the side of the Confederacy, and he often wore his gray uniform, like in Legends of Tomorrow.
Edited by Jim Burdo on 16 July 2020 at 6:42am
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