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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134105
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Posted: 30 May 2019 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 1
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During my years working with him, I came to think Chris felt it was his JOB to write against what I drew. He seemed to be taking as his model the Thomas/Adams years, when Roy sometimes scripted something other than what Neal had drawn. This effect can be difficult for some fans to recognize, if they do not fully comprehend the Marvel Method of plot-pencils-script, and assume the penciler is just drawing what the writer has described.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12856
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Posted: 30 May 2019 at 11:53am | IP Logged | 2
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My memory could be faulty, and 40 plus years ago I was not looking for this, but no scenes readily come to mind of Mr. Claremont writing against Dave Cockrum's artwork.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134105
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Posted: 30 May 2019 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 3
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Nor to mine. An extra soupçon of frustration for me.
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Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4504
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Posted: 30 May 2019 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 4
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JB, at what point did you start co-plotting the book with Chris? And do you know if Dave had much or any input to the plots during the first 15 issues of Uncanny X-Men? Nightcrawler was his creation and that suggests he had lots of input on the book, but I wonder if he was an influential to the stories as you were during your run.
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Bill Dowling Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 07 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2180
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Posted: 30 May 2019 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | 5
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“My memory could be faulty, and 40 plus years ago I was not looking for this, but no scenes readily come to mind of Mr. Claremont writing against Dave Cockrum's artwork.”
Unless X-Men 153 was intended to be super-serious,...
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Vinny Valenti Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8230
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Posted: 31 May 2019 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 6
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If I'm remembering correctly, JB and Jim Lee were the only artists to have co-plotter credit with CC (I could swear that there was a single-issue exception with one other artist, but the name and issue escape me).
CC did have a habit of slipping in dialogue that seemed to be at odds with the scene the artist presented, regardless. Here's an example I can think of:
Seems like an odd panel to choose for Wolverine to be musing about Archangel's scent (this was actually a reference to an abandoned storyline linking Wolverine to Apocolypse - abandoned plots were another CC trademark).
Edited by Vinny Valenti on 31 May 2019 at 6:57am
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12856
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Posted: 31 May 2019 at 7:07am | IP Logged | 7
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I do not know anything about Dave Cockrum's working relationship with Chris Claremont. But before and after JB, it certainly seems like the C&C team were most eager to tell literally out of this world tales.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134105
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Posted: 31 May 2019 at 7:58am | IP Logged | 8
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I spent a lot of my time on UNCANNY reminding Chris the book was about mutants, not aliens, demons and vampires.
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Tim O Neill Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10953
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Posted: 31 May 2019 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 9
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I would argue that the Dark Phoenix story contributed to the speculator boom. As someone who bought 136 and 137 off the stands, I was DESPERATE to read the issues that came before. I only attended one comic convemtion as a kid and got one visit to a comic book store in Houston, and each time I went looking for these comics. I forget the price for each, but it was beyond my limited financial reach. My theory - the value for these back issues made the perception of X-Men as a “collectible” financial investment in the post JB years.
The Dark Phoenix run also cemented JB’s contribution to the X-Men’s popularity. When the Dark Phoenix trade came out, it made the story accessible. It stayed on my bookshelf even after I gave up comic books and was a book I often revisited. It was constantly in print well after JB’s run and was therefore a huge part of how people perceived the X-Men then and now. To this day I love that collection because it’s not just Dark Phoenix - it’s the series of issues leading up to that moment.
I think the constant trade paperback presence of Dark Phoenix and Days of Future Past have had more to do with the success of the X-Men than is reflected in the sales numbers cited above. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that was more popular after JB because JB’s run never went away. It became essential reading very quickly.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134105
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Posted: 31 May 2019 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 10
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Interesting to note the Captain America effect in that Wolverine panel. Pulled back, the cowl/helmet seems to double its allotted amount of cloth.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 31 May 2019 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 11
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ITEM: Vinnie V., perhaps that co-writer credit was the fill-in issue (146?) with Brent Anderson art? Oh, you must remember it... it was LOUSY with Jean/Phoenix appearances.
ITEM: Chris Claremont took so damned many liberties... that X-Men/X-Factor crossover in Inferno (itself riddled with self-contradictions) was great in that the original X-Men were back in "X-Men" and terrible in how it was actually produced. Wolverine's kissing Jean to beat the band, and the subsequent panel shows Cyclops just watching placidly - what the everloving HELL? I would figure that Colossus would have trouble holding Scott back from blowing Wolverine into orbit.
And that panel in Vinny's post - because Warren smells like PAIN??? After a couple of years? And Wolverine apparently just ignores it?
Oh, and... "My senses tell me you LOVED that kiss!" Where did THAT come from? Jean never expressed that type of affection for Wolverine... but nothing was to stop him from lying about it. Crap, I wanted to kill Wolverine. Right there, right then. F*cking rapist.
ITEM: I wonder about the X-Men's sales success too. Messrs. Claremont, Byrne, and Austin were indeed producing a classic book, but it seemed to be an underground hit until, as noted, Mr. Byrne left the book. I wonder how closely Mr. Cockrum's return and the DSM coincided with each other... that might explain it, I reckon.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 31 May 2019 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 12
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Tim - "I was DESPERATE to read the issues that came before"
I can relate having come in with #131 and how excited I was to get #126, 128-130 (even if the 126 and 128 were obviously less than unread new). Those were red hot when the idea of being able to buy something other than the current issues was still a huge discovery! :^)
I think we went from one red hot gotta get to another... I went from the two part Ant-Man to back copies of X-Men to Daredevil to New Teen Titans and then Elfquest I think... always some new missing issue or title you'd passed on to chase. That first Untold Batman and finding out about Englehart/Rogers Detective/Batman, and then Neal Adams... if something wasn't mentioned in a letters page there often seemed to be someone at the comic shop who would say if you're looking for that maybe you'd like The Champions or this Hulk annual or did you know about these Charlton comics? Suddenly my want list would exceed what I had.
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