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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133317
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Posted: 17 November 2018 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | 1
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Stan himself said the one who first had the idea was the creator, so read into that what you will.
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Koroush Ghazi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 1681
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Posted: 17 November 2018 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | 2
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I'm sure Stan's legacy will outlast any controversies. To quote a line from the movie Chopper: "Beethoven had his critics too, see if you can name three of them".
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15950
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Posted: 17 November 2018 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 3
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Stan himself said the one who first had the idea was the creator, so read into that what you will.------------------------------------------------- Which is a sensible answer. People want a simple solution to a complex question. The idea of creating a hero for Marvel comics called Spider-Man indisputably began with Stan. The hero we know as Spider-Man, however, was indisputably forged to a large degree by Steve.
Stan clearly thought he created Spider-Man. I don't think you can make a proper argument that Steve Ditko wasn't co-creator though and I think the argument that Stan and Steve were co-creators of Spider-Man easily trumps all other arguments. You'd have to have an extremely superficial understanding of the subject to exclude Ditko.
People do love the idea of the singular genius though
No one deserves more credit for Marvel than Stan, but Jack gets overlooked, Steve gets overlooked -- and even those of us who are very familiar with Marvel's history are all too ready to lay our wreath at the base of these three pillars, forgetting the contributions of Steranko and Buscema, Thomas and Romita and Wein, to name but a few.
Marvel is a tapestry from which the most important threads originated with Stan and Jack and Steve, but there were many weavers involved.
Edited by Peter Martin on 17 November 2018 at 7:25pm
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 17 November 2018 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | 4
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Peter Martin wrote: "The idea of creating a hero for Marvel comics called Spider-Man indisputably began with Stan."
Not indisputably. Both Joe Simon and Jack Kirby say otherwise.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133317
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Posted: 17 November 2018 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | 5
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Peter Martin wrote: "The idea of creating a hero for Marvel comics called Spider-Man indisputably began with Stan."Not indisputably. Both Joe Simon and Jack Kirby say otherwise. ••• SAID otherwise, unless you have a Ouija board handy. And in any case, they were both wrong. Simon and Kirby created a character called “the Silver Spider”, which went nowhere, so they eventually reworked it as the Fly. When Stan gave Jack his idea for Spider-Man, Kirby pulled out those unused Silver Spider pages. Stan didn’t go for it, and called in Ditko, who gave Stan what he wanted. Kirby co-created a spider based superhero, but it most certainly wasn’t Spider-Man.
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Craig Bogart Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 June 2008 Posts: 407
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Posted: 17 November 2018 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 6
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I've always figured that Ayn Rand-devotee Steve Ditko would never have conjured the line "With great power comes great responsibility", so I find it easy to attribute the core elements that define that particular character to Stan.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15950
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Posted: 17 November 2018 at 11:51pm | IP Logged | 7
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The idea of creating a hero for Marvel comics called Spider-Man indisputably began with Stan."
Not indisputably. Both Joe Simon and Jack Kirby say otherwise. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------- Joe Simon had an idea to create a hero for Marvel Comics called Spider-Man? You seriously think that?
My wording was very specific.
Joe Simon may have had an idea for a spider-related super-hero for another comics company, but if you try and claim that the idea of creating a hero called Spider-Man at Marvel resided with anyone else but Stan Lee, well, good luck to you.
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Brian Floyd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 8582
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Posted: 18 November 2018 at 12:33am | IP Logged | 8
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Simon and Kirby had an idea for a hero called the Silver Spider, but I've never heard of them working on a hero called Spider-Man.
The "Spider-Man" name, however, wasn't really original. The Golden Age DC hero the Tarantula was actually referred to as "Spider Man" (no hyphen) a few times in his first appearances.
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Rob Ocelot Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 December 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1231
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Posted: 18 November 2018 at 2:27am | IP Logged | 9
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Simon and Kirby created a character called “the Silver Spider”, which went nowhere, so they eventually reworked it as the Fly. When Stan gave Jack his idea for Spider-Man, Kirby pulled out those unused Silver Spider pages. Stan didn’t go for it, and called in Ditko, who gave Stan what he wanted.
The Silver Spider pencils that I've seen here and there aren't Kirby though, they are apparently C.C. Beck. What Kirby supposedly submitted to Stan as "Spiderman" was five pages of something new, yet vaguely similar to both the Silver Spider and The Fly. Ditko's recollections describe a mysterious neighbor who was an 'inventor' rather than the Silver Spider's magic genie benefactor. Unfortunately these critical Kirby pages were either discarded or went walkabout but Simon retained the Silver Spider pages. About twenty years ago I asked Mark Evanier where he thought Kirby's Spider-man story might be and he seemed to fall on the side of it being destroyed. Pretty much the only element from the Kirby version to make it into the finished Ditko product was the "Spiderman" name, which was later revised to the hyphenated version (you can still see this paste-over on the Smithsonian scans). Unless you count the living with the uncle and aunt thing but that's certainly not unique. Stan had used that setup before -- and even used it earlier in 1962 with the names "Ben" and "May" in STRANGE TALES 97.
But I digress... this is a subject better suited for it's own thread separate from our condolences and tributes to Stan.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 18 November 2018 at 3:18am | IP Logged | 10
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Peter, even if you disagree with Stan's detractors, their arguments that Spider-Man did not originate with Lee at Marvel have nevertheless been made and evidence shown. "Indisputably" means that the contention put forth cannot be disputed. Your's already is and has been for decades. You should pick another word.
However, I do agree with Rob's statement that this is not the time nor the place for this.
Edited by Brian Hague on 18 November 2018 at 3:28am
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Brian Floyd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 8582
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Posted: 18 November 2018 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 11
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I can't help but wonder if Kirby's unused Spider-Man costume design had some influence on Ditko when he created his version of the Blue Beetle.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133317
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Posted: 18 November 2018 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 12
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I can't help but wonder if Kirby's unused Spider-Man costume design had some influence on Ditko when he created his version of the Blue Beetle.•• Seems like you are determined to take SOMETHING away from Ditko.
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