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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 17 September 2018 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 1
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Okay, hope this is within the remit of your question, Eric (and great ideas from Brian!).
Sinister Six VS DC Villains, right? Okay
Original Sinister Six (Dr. Octopus, Vulture, Electro, Kraven, Mysterio and Sandman)
VS
Metallo, Deadshot, Solomon Grundy, Captain Cold, Black Manta, and The Fadeaway Man
Can Octopus' tentacles rip Metallo's Kryptonite heart out?
Can Deadshot take out the Vulture?
Will Electro's powers work against Solomon Grundy?
Can Kraven trap Captain Cold?
What will Mysterio have in store for Black Manta?
Can Sandman stop the Fadeaway Man, who can keep teleporting via his cloak?
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 17 September 2018 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | 2
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Thanks, guys! Eric, you are correct. The SSOSV apparently had a butler named Carstairs. I should have remembered that. My involvement with the team was intermittent, but I did have one of the issues he was apparently in.
Robbie, I like those bouts. Around this time last year, we had a similar discussion involving the Sinister Six and I came up with a team I thought would look good drawn by Steve Ditko. It consisted of the Robot Brainiac designed by Ed Hannigan, the Psycho-Pirate, Shadow Thief, Gentleman Ghost, Rag Doll, and Black Manta. I can picture a Ditko-drawn issue from that era featuring a battle between them and the Sinister Six.
There was an iteration of the Injustice Gang that I liked as a kid featuring Libra, Poison Ivy, Chronos, the Scarecrow, Mirror Master, and the Tattooed Man. A Marvelized version of that team might consist of Scorpio, Viper, Dr. Time (a Spidey Super Stories villain); the Psycho-Man, Dr. Spectrum, and Mysterio. Pitting them against one another would be fun.
My friends and I just watched the Infinity War movie again, and with that in mind, I wonder what sort of teams each universe might assemble to do battle with Thanos and his gauntlet.
Marvel-
The Shaper of Worlds (Reality) Galactus (Power) Hela (Soul) Infinity (Time) Eternity (Space) The Uni-Mind (Mind)
DC-
Mad Brainiac Five wielding The Miracle Machine (Reality) The Infinity Man (Power) Nekron (Soul) The Time Trapper (Time) Kismet (Space) Antithesis (Mind)
It's two universes against a mad god... And this time, the gloves are off!
Technically, many of these beings are not villains, but they do tend to wind up on the opposite side of our heroes quite often. Two that I wish I'd been able to factor into this were the Living Tribunal and the Master Summoner. There's also a DC cosmic being known as the Adjudicator as well who proved to be a galactic-scale madman. The Robot version of Brainiac would go on and on about needing to stop some force he called "The Master Programmer" whose Angel of Death he claimed was Superman. I do not believe that was ever followed up on. DC has a handful of powerful cosmic beings in its stable; They just don't come out to play very often.
Edited by Brian Hague on 17 September 2018 at 5:29pm
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 18 September 2018 at 6:16am | IP Logged | 3
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Yes, it does feel like their cosmic beings don't come out to play often. The fact that I can't even picture The Adjudicator in my head is proof of that.
The Living Tribunal has a cool look. Isn't he omnipotent?
Speaking of super-powerful beings clashing, I'd love to see the following:
Juggernaut VS Destroyer (I can't pick a winner in that one!) Darkseid VS Dormammu Nightmare VS Loki Galactus VS Anti-Monitor
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 18 September 2018 at 8:01am | IP Logged | 4
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Robbie, everyone is omnipotent until they encounter someone more powerful. That's why it's a rabbit hole that shouldn't be traveled too far. Sooner or later, the question God (or Jesus) arises, and the debate arises that should never be discussed in a comic book.
I dunno if I can really speak to the villains, but I will bring up one point that Robbie should like. DC, for the longest time, used exclusive villains - only Superman faced Luthor, the Riddler fought no one but Batman, Sinestro was only Green Lantern's arch foe, etc. The only "crossovers" occurred in World's Finest or Justice League of America, and even though were stunningly rare.
Marvel's rogues seemed to face different heroes on - if not a regular basis, at least with some frequency. The Sandman face off against the Fantastic Four or the Hulk, the Kingpin battled Daredevil, Dr. Doom battled the Avengers, etc. It seemed that DC had a single hero with his own exclusive villains (and a willingness to create a unique villain rather than impinge on some other hero's villains.) Marvel had a corral of super villains, and they might show up to fight ANYONE.
I would have LOVED to see Batman and Robin take on Brainiac, or Green Arrow battle the Cheetah. So notwithstanding individual rogues galleries... I think Marvel handled theirs better.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 18 September 2018 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 5
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Gosh, I love cross-pollination. I was disappointed that Green Goblin didn't fight more heroes.
I'd have loved to have seen Captain America grappling with Vulture mid-air. Or Iron Man taking on Juggernaut. Or Rhino battling Wolverine. It's nice to see new encounters.
And, just from the discussions with people like yourself and Brian, so many scenarios come to mind. I mean, I'd love to see FF VS Juggernaut. Thing would throw fists, Human Torch would throw fireballs, Invisible Woman would try and hold Juggernaut back with her force field - and Reed would be coming up with a scientific angle to try and defeat Juggernaut!
How long would Cap be able to hold on to his shield as the Lizard's tail repeatedly hits him?
Could Scorpion's tale hurt a weakened Namor?
Just what would Mysterio have in store for the original X-Men? I can even see mileage in villain vs villain encounters (provided they are not overdone).
Why wouldn't Kraven relish the challenge of hunting Lizard?
What would happen if Juggernaut and Destroyer ran towards each other?
How would Mandarin handle Doctor Doom (if Doom was in China to exploit Mandarin for Latverian purposes)?
So many scenarios...
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 18 September 2018 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 6
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As much as I enjoy a good cross-pollination, I still prefer the idea of a hero having an individual rogues gallery to contend with. Players can change partners every now and then, but once anyone can face anyone and the Joker doesn't hate Batman, but rather all super-heroes, and Luthor isn't out to test himself against Superman but pretty much whoever is out on patrol today, the stories themselves lose a great deal of their impact.
A Batman vs. Brainiac showdown does sound like fun, though, especially if Brainiac shrinks the city, literally stealing everything in it including the people and the Batman as well. It lends a whole new definition to the term "Bat-Mite." Batman rallies the troops, "Gothamites, attack!"
Getting back to the idea of Marvel villains vs. DC ones, I wonder how a Marvel team might fare against the Legion of Doom?
Obadiah Stane vs. Luthor Dr. Spectrum vs. Sinestro The Lizard vs. Black Manta Kraven vs. the Cheetah Venom vs. Bizarro Machinesmith vs. Toyman Simon Garth* vs. Soloman Grundy Dark Beast vs. Gorilla Grodd Titania vs. Giganta Equinox vs. Captain Cold Mister Fear vs. Scarecrow Mad Thinker vs. the Riddler
Granted, there are a few "Hawkeye vs. Green Arrow" confrontations in there, but sometimes it's interesting to compare varying levels of competency between the two characters. I'm more interested to see how Mr. Fear would battle the Scarecrow than I am in a Blizzard vs. Capt. Cold confrontation, for instance.
* Not a villain, per se, but there could be ways to pit the two against one another through the use of Garth's medallion.
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Doug Centers Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 17 February 2014 Location: United States Posts: 5512
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Posted: 18 September 2018 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 7
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Flash rogues vs. Daredevil rogues a select few anyway.
Captain Cold The Owl Abra Kadabra Kingpin Mirror Master Mister Fear The Trickster Bullseye Cap. Boomerang Stilt Man Reverse Flash Gladiator
DD's rogues have the edge on masterminds, but the misdirection and pure chaos the likes of Kadabra, MM and The Trickster can cause would be hell to overcome. Would like to see a single matchup between Cap. Boomerang and Bullseye. I'll admit Gladiator is one of my all time favorite villains but he's usually a close combat character which would be tough against this bunch. Though he can detach his blades if need be. Ultimately Reverse Flash could take them all out unless Mr. Fear sets a trap for him.
Ok now I'm ready for the mini series!
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
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Posted: 18 September 2018 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 8
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I'm ready for that mini-series, Doug!
Brian Hague wrote:
As much as I enjoy a good cross-pollination, I still prefer the idea of a hero having an individual rogues gallery to contend with. Players can change partners every now and then, but once anyone can face anyone and the Joker doesn't hate Batman, but rather all super-heroes, and Luthor isn't out to test himself against Superman but pretty much whoever is out on patrol today, the stories themselves lose a great deal of their impact. |
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As obsessed I am with "cross-pollination", it certainly needs to be done sparingly. It shouldn't be overdone.
Maybe once every 2 years, there could be some "cross-pollination". Doesn't have to be a big event, it could simply be Captain America being the one to come across Vulture or Batman and Robin being the only ones around to tackle Metallo. Some stories would seem to "write themselves". Kraven would surely want to hunt down the Lizard. Imagine bagging that "prize".
But if "cross-pollination" was overdone, it'd lose its uniqueness, I know.
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17677
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Posted: 19 September 2018 at 6:04am | IP Logged | 9
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Let's take it as a given that the hero is going to come out on top...
How would Puck defeat Doctor Octopus?
How would Namorita stop a rampaging Abomination?
How would the Black Panther triumph over Blastaar, the Living Bomb Burst?
Would Mysterio be in for a surprise tryng to use illusions against Daredevil? (I know he works in scents and sounds as well, but...)
If I'm going too far off topic, please disregard.
Edited by Wallace Sellars on 19 September 2018 at 6:34am
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
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Posted: 19 September 2018 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 10
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One of the hallmarks of an effective hero is resourcefulness. In the case of Puck, as a bouncer and student of human nature, he can probably spot someone who's been picked on a great deal over the course of his life. He's going to bob and weave while he trash-talks and bar-bashes Ock. He's going to come off like a jerk to anyone reading the story because he isn't going to be nice as he bullies and badgers Ock in a non-humorous, non-Spidey fashion. He works in a friggin' bar and has for years. He's heard every demeaning, insulting thing you can call someone, and let's face it, Ock has it coming. Judd's going to steal his glasses and step on them. He's going to bad mouth the guy into making a mistake, such as swinging an arm into a fuse box.
Namorita holds out long enough for Namor to answer her call. Not everyone is a knock-down-drag-out brawler and that's what it takes to out-punch and out-last a bruiser of the Abomination's stature. If nothing else, she can easily outswim him and get him to follow her into a subsea trap. I would imagine she knows the location of something down there bigger and meaner than the Abomination. Being an Atlantean, Namorita knows there's always a bigger fish.
Black Panther is presumably fighting Blastarr inside the Baxter Bldg. (or whatever its called now.) He's going to understand how to operate all of Reed's gizmos and gadgets. He's extremely tech-savvy. The only question he faces is how many of them it will take to put down the Living Bomb-burst. Outside the FF's H.Q. and away from his own Wakandan labs and armories, he's going to trick Klaw into attacking Blastarr accidentally and sic the two of them on each other.
I do think DD would have the advantage on Mysterio and could easily keep the villain guessing as to how he able to distinguish Mysterio's illusions from reality so easily. Drugging DD with some form of hallucinogenic gas is really Mysterio's best hope for victory, and then DD has to deal with fighting his way back from a bad trip. In the end, a lot depends on whether Mysterio sticks around long enough for DD to regain his senses and clean Mysterio's clock.
Ultimately, I think it's important to realize that the heroes used to lose to the villains all the time. It's their ability to rally coupled with the villain's reluctance to shoot them dead while unconscious that makes for the happy endings to so many previous tales. Yes, Wonder Woman could take down the Flash, and then Superman can take down Wonder Woman. Batman can defeat Superman, as we all know (we've seen it umpteen times now) but I remember this story where Kite-Man knocked out Batman. So... Kite-Man is the strongest character in the DC Universe?
Far too much premium is placed on the outcomes of these random punch-'em-up's.
Edited by Brian Hague on 19 September 2018 at 8:48am
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