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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

A similar topic; now and then writers are also given completely free hands to do whatever they want with a character in the form of a non-canonical mini-series. That's not really a problem as long as it doesn't affect the official title, but for me there is a limit for how many dozen times I want to read different versions of the same origin story for an established character.

•••

I promise X-MEN - ELSEWHEN will not rewrite any origins.

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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Interesting about the color knockout thing. As Johnny Carson might say "I did not know that!"

Was there ever a proto Hulk in any of the non-super character Marvel monster books? I know there was a proto Sandman in one, and some other protoean versions of types that went on to populate the later titles (hate to say 'universe') as regulars. I think the monster roots and muted coloring choices is a lot of what made '60s Marvel so different, and sort for older readers compared to DC. The Thing had more depth and pathos for me than The Hulk, but The Hulk seemed to work a lot better on tv than any of the others Marvel tried. Spider-Man and Dr. Strange on tv did not take off but The Hulk was a genuine '70s-'80s smash! :^)
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Olav Bakken
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

No, if anything, it sounds like the X-Men - Elsewhen is a return to the original canon, and makes me think of the What if... stories Marvel used to publish, which I enjoyed. The premise in those issues was about what would have changed if just one thing turned out differently.

What I had in mind was the total reboots regarding origin stories that have been around for some time. Everything except a few basic story elements are changed. Not that it mean it's bad writing for that reason (even if it often happens that the approach is not my cup of tea). It's just that I personally will gradually lose interest in reading the origin story of a character over and over again. The first few times are OK, and there are probably readers who have not read much about the characters before who enjoy it, but eventually one start to ask the question; "how many times is it possible to return to ground zero and come up with something new".
And because the rebooted world is brand new, it is not yet established properly, and never get the chance to do so. Which makes it feel like the number of superhumans in that world can be counted on just one hand. Everything is over even before you have had the chance to connect with the world. And when I find something new or discover something already established, it is always great to see a universe you like unfold in front of you as you keep returning to it.

But there is no reason why it shouldn't be possible to come up with something new and still use the same concept of a reboot mini-series where we are introduced to a Peter Parker who have already been Spider-Man for some years, but who is different from the Spider-Man we know in one way or another.

Edited by Olav Bakken on 01 August 2018 at 12:00am
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Picking up Olav's point, I don't buy any of these retellings of Batman's origin. Not sure what is left to say.

I loved THE UNTOLD LEGEND OF THE BATMAN (it's one of my favourite Bat-stories). YEAR ONE is something I really enjoy. Those were the last words. If I see an announcement for "Post-Rebirth, Year Dot: A Retelling Of The Dark Knight's Early Days", I won't be buying it!
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Greg McPhee
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Len Wein added to the character with developments, characters and plots working within the confines and tropes he was given. He didn't feel a need to add things in to Banner's backstory. 

***

What backstory? Banner barely had one during the Wein years. We knew very little of his life before the gamma bomb went off. 

=======================================================

Unlike Mantlo and David, he didn't make Bruce a victim of the abuse of an alcoholic / a wife beater / murderer, or any previous trauma. Len Wein played in the sandbox without feeling the need to dump sand in it that served no purpose.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I think Frank Miller introducing Elektra was a perfect example of EXPANDING on a character's back story, without contradicting anything that had come before.  We saw young Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson at school and Matt's first attempts at using his powers and disguising himself.  Elektra and Stick became important and welcome additions to the Daredevil mythos.

I think (if I recall correctly) Miller and Romita Jr.'s later MAN WITHOUT FEAR did rewrite some established history, and I don't know if it's considered canon; I think readers and later writers (except for the TV show) tend to ignore it.

Likewise, I think Miller's BATMAN: YEAR ONE is highly regarded, but I don't think it's considered canon anymore (if anything at DC can be called "canon" these days)--he messed around too much with Gordon's life and made Selina a hooker.  Such far-reaching changes don't stick, and I think YEAR ONE is shuttled off to "Frank Miller World" with DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and ALL-STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN.


Edited by Eric Jansen on 31 July 2018 at 4:17pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

YEAR ONE still has its adherents. One fairly recent story had the writer establish how nervous and agitated Bruce was on that first night out as Batman when he confronted the Falcones and their friends at their dinner party.

In Miller's story, Batman arranges for a searing dish to explode into flames to herald his arrival. In the new, retold version, the writer has Batman admit in voice-over that the flash he created startled him so much, he wet himself...

Which is so cute and precious, you just want to pinch the cheeks of that precocious lil' scamp of a writer until they come right off...

Added: Just looked it up and the "bladder spasm" bit comes from Kevin Smith in 2010. While that is not as recent as I'd remembered, my other comments stand.


Edited by Brian Hague on 31 July 2018 at 9:30pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 9:24pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

It's worth noting that Selina was a prostitute of the type that only exists in Miller's fevered imagination; the tough-as-nails badass who runs her own business, protects her sister pros, and wouldn't tolerate an abusive pimp anywhere near their side of town. They run the city from Block A to Block G and make no mistake, they will cut you from throat to scrote if you so much as look sideways at one of them...

... And yet they still **** you to make their money. Because... why again? Sin City was rife with such figures of "take back the power" strength, clarity, and leather gear.

I believe that Mindy Newell's CATWOMAN mini-series not only presented a more realistic view of prostitution, but also established that Selina was just faking being a prostitute while she searched for her missing sister.

Comics are weird.


Edited by Brian Hague on 31 July 2018 at 9:25pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

It's an unfortunate reality that origin stories will always be reprinted, re-examined, and re-interpreted in comics. Not only do writers all-too-frequently convince themselves that they have the character's whole deal figured out, and need to make it clear to everyone else ('cause no one else seems to get it...) but putting something clever in at the start of the character's story means you get to show what an ace you are at paying that off later... Who could resist?

Well... professionals could. And largely did over the years. But no one writes in the present anymore. They write to encapsulate and expand upon the whole of the mythology. Playing the ball where it was left to lie by some other writer is a lost art, and quite frankly, beneath the dignity of whoever has been handed the reins most recently. Miller got to change stuff. Byrne did. David, too... Who is to say that I am any less than they are...? Don't believe me... Just read THIS...!!

And we do. And it's lousy. And superstar flavor-of-the-month struts off, his tail-feathers proudly spread, because no one really GOT what he was laying down there. He was just too cool for this room...

Focusing on the Hulk specifically, it is unfortunate that CHANGE has become the central theme of the character since David's time on the book. There is now nothing that is out-of-bounds with the Hulk because whatever you're doing, it now represents CHANGE. Banner has been made insane, stricken with leukemia*, shot in the head**... And each time, it gives the Hulk a NEW jumping-on-point for readers.

I'll commend Marvel at least for not rebooting the character from square one each time to accommodate these fits of authorial pique. At least the events occur "naturally" over the course of the character's life. We could be seeing the Gamma Bomb blowing up again and again and again to bring about these creative liberties.

* No one could get the number of Banner's doctor to Jane Foster in time? See also: Batman's broken back and Oracle.

** Just looked up the changes to the Hulk formula added by writers over the years... Gravage, Dark, Kluh, Scarred... omg... They can't help themselves, can they?

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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 11:41pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The Hulk situation really got out of control when someone decided that there are various Hulks due to something like a split personality syndrome, and other writers felt the need to create more versions due to that. 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 12:21am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I have a great love for those first six issues, but they absolutely show Lee, Kirby, and Ditko making it up as they went along. Despite what Peter David may think, change—inconsistency—was not a key part of the character. It just took awhile for them to find a formula that clicked. And it’s a fascinating evolution to track.

There’s plenty to love about those early issues. The original Hulk’s sunset trigger-mechanism is a nice tie to classic (vampires, werewolves) monster lore, and brought with it a clockwork regularity of transformations which would (and did, during David’s run) make for interesting story dynamics. 

The Hulk being under Rick Jones’ control in issues 3 and 4—as long as Rick was awake—was a fun idea, but it negated the central Banner/Hulk conflict of the series. I don’t think this brief iteration was intended to last, though. It seems to have been more of a transitional step to what came next.

The Hulk with Banner’s brain—but angry—is a version full of good story potential (with Banner always in danger of losing control and/or becoming an addict), and is also the version who co-founded the Avengers. David later retconned this version into basically the Gray Hulk persona influencing Banner’s personality while in his Hulk form. The major drawback to this version is that it was rather location-specific, since Banner needed to use the gamma ray projector to force the transformations. 

After those first six issues, we started to see the Hulk’s intelligence level drop. And, in TALES TO ASTONISH, we finally got the classic anger trigger-mechanism for the transformations, which opened up storytelling possibilities a great deal. Of course, the Hulk initially reverted back to Banner when HE got too excited, but this was quickly discarded in favor of the tranformation being triggered by his calming down, instead. This is the version which lasted for nearly 20 years in the comics, and is also essentially the version popularized by the TV show. By now, the transformation require no external stimuli, and the anger trigger-mechanism was a surefire source of drama and tension. And the TV show gave us the clsssic phrase, “Hulk-Out”, as a result.

I think people connect to this refined incarnation of the Hulk on a very visceral level. He’s a wonderful metaphor for repressed emotions going wild, and serves as the by-proxy catharsis of watching someone unleash their inner rage and smash stuff. It’s a perfect balance and an exploration of duality. Reason vs. rage. Intellect versus primitive emotions. Banner can’t get too emotional for fear of unleashing the Hulk, and the Hulk can’t find the peace he seeks without reverting back to Banner and ceasing to exist. 

I like several other incarnations of the character (and would love to have seen where JB would have taken the back-to-basics, “angry Banner” version he had in mind), but I totally get why the “Hulk smash!” version (as well as his mute TV counterpart) is the iconic version. Although I personally prefer Stern’s “Donald Duck” take to Wein’s “Goofy”. I like the Hulk to see everything though anger-tinted glasses (which would get in the way of complex/rational thought), rather that his merely being stupid. Child-like, yes, but not necessarily an idiot. Just primitive emotions run wild. 
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Lots to think about. I guess we're lucky that when Tony Stark with banner's assistance 'cured' the Hulk but ended up with Banner with Hulk's brain that they didn't keep him like that for a couple of years. I think what they used to use for a two or three issue story in the past somewhere got turned into a years long epic tale that usually turned out to not be memorable at all because the next writer would either undo or ignore it anyway, or just because of them stretching things out for way too long?

They also used to keep the nemesis mostly confined to each title, not have Doctor Doom attack the X-Men, and there is a point of cross-over overload. That's kind of what the team-up and guest starring heroes was a safety valve for. For awhile it seemed like there was one single title with lots of different names all connected (Shooter's doing again?). Tricking you into buying titles you hadn't bought and maybe didn't want to, which seemed cool originally and then was milked to an extreme. I read the Hulk circa 1979-83 (plus the reprint title and Defenders) and you could miss an issue or two and not be totally lost, or like me never having even seen the Rampaging magazine. Maybe it was just luck I was already buying Iron Man when he crossed-over so that was more a nice surprise? To me the Hulk tv show was obviously it's own thing and I knew zilch about alternate earths being applied to comcs (though I knew them well from sf and Philip K. Dick in particular). That Hulk didn't/couldn't talk, if the comic book Hulk had been made to clam up like Lou Ferrigno it would have made the comic a lot less fun. I still see both as primal ID, but Donald Duck is a kind of primal ID to me too so that worls as well! :^)
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