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Adam Schulman
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Joined: 22 July 2017
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 6:27am | IP Logged | 1
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He specifically said that Banner would have “gone bonkers” with or without the effects of the gamma bomb. He also felt that, while never explicitly stated, there would likely have been sexual abuse involved in order to fracture Banner’s psyche to the degree that it had been.
***
I didn't see it. I don't agree about the sexual abuse bit -- that goes too far.
"Going bonkers"? I love how "neurotypical" people talk about mental illness. Makes me want to put my fist through the computer screen.
Who knows. I'm sure he would've had a nervous breakdown. Dissociative Identity Disorder? I doubt it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 6:32am | IP Logged | 2
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As someone with mental illness problems virtually from birth, (particularly anger management), which is quite common among Gen X and Millennials (you can read about this everywhere), I related to Banner on a very different level. I related to his misery. And the Hulk's misery.•• In other words, you came to the character very late in his publishing history, and like so many fans you insist that the version you first encountered is the "true" version. That may be true, if that encounter was in the first issue. If it was twenty years later, not so much. Then you come into first contact with a character who has passed thru the hands of many writers, each of whom has added his own layers. To illustrate, speaking metaphorically Len Wein described the Hulk as "Marvel's Goofy." Taking over after Len, Roger Stern disagreed, and said the Hulk was "Marvel's Donald Duck." Very different!
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Adam Schulman
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 6:59am | IP Logged | 3
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If I was like so many fans I'd say, for example, that Magneto the holocaust survivor is the "true" verison. But I've read the Lee/Kirby X-MEN and I know he isn't.
The Hulk was so different between #1 and #6 in 1962 -- "true version"? Stan and Jack had a lot of trouble figuring out who the character even was!
Hard to say there was a "true Hulk" (i.e. a consistent one) until the TALES TO ASTONISH days. ("Puny humans! Hulk smash!" etc.)
For the record, my intro to the Hulk was through MARVEL'S GREATEST HEROES (I think) reprints. Len Wein and Herb Trimpe. Banner hates being the Hulk, the Hulk hates being Banner (to the degree that he understands that he IS Banner). Two personalities in the same head/body.
*** Sounds like you may not be aware of the REAL "thing that happened". The Hulk was grey in his first issue as a deliberate choice. The colorist, using what is called a "knockout" technique (also seen, for example, in FF5), in one panel, for effect, colored the Hulk green. It was decided that looked better, and in the next issue he became green. *** I've seen INCREDIBLE HULK #1 posted online. The actual 1962 comic. The Hulk is different colors in different panels. The problem, which even Stan Lee has recounted, was that the printer had difficulty making the Hulk consistently grey. As I recall he was red in one panel. Yes, he was green in one panel; yes, it looked good, that's why the Hulk was green from #2 onward. I understand. And yes, the idea of a "grey Hulk" with a distinct personality was an error. Bill Mantlo shouldn't have come up with it, John Byrne(!) shouldn't have gone along with it, etc. I'm sure you agree, now. |
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 7:11am | IP Logged | 4
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The Hulk is different colors in different panels. The problem, which even Stan Lee has recounted, was that the printer had difficulty making the Hulk consistently grey. •• Grey was what was called a K-tone on the old coloring scale: CMYK. Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Grey. Cyan was sort of blue, and magenta and yellow were combined to create red*. Since it was an extra plate, the K-tone was an additional expense. It was also difficult to maintain the same shade of grey, from page to page. Again, for emphasis, the "knockout" technique meant coloring panels and backgrounds in solid colors, even if those colors were not accurate. It was dramatic (FF5 remains one of my favorite coloring jobs) but there was also a practical side to it: it was faster. __________________________ * Yes, mixing a primary color!
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Olav Bakken
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 June 2014
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 5
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«Betty's pining for Bruce didn't have anything to do with her later becoming the Harpy.»
Those were the days when the transformation were not a reflection of you psyche, suppressions and inner desires, but something unpredictable. The only exception is Sasquatch (Walter Langkowski), who told Banner in Incredible Hulk Annual issue 8 that his gamma body was actually designed. (Of course, later it was revealed that it had nothing to do with gamma radiation, but about possession of a being from a mystical realm that came through a portal created in the lab.)
Some transform back and forth, some changes personality and others not. Still, the Outcasts which we meet in Incredible Hulk issue 329 is taking it a little too far when we have snakes, cactuses and even rocks becoming alive and anthropomorphic because of the radiation.
Peter David tried to rationalize it with that all the other people exposed to gamma radiation was inside a lab when it happened, unlike Banner which was outdoors under a desert sun. The solar radiation therefore joined forces with the gamma radiation and affected the outcome, transforming him to Hulk once the sun went down.
Peter David's own creation Half-Life shuts down his entire body during daytime, because he too was outdoors when a bomb went off.
«The Hulk was grey in his first issue as a deliberate choice. The colorist, using what is called a "knockout" technique (also seen, for example, in FF5), in one panel, for effect, colored the Hulk green. It was decided that looked better, and in the next issue he became green.»
It's no wonder why so many believe it was because of an error and problems with the coloring process. I read an article myself years ago which claimed the exact same thing, even stating that it was Stan Lee who said it. Before the internet there were no ways to check out if it was correct or not.
«In other words, you came to the character very late in his publishing history, and like so many fans you insist that the version you first encountered is the "true" version.»
Which is sadly why so many are only aware of Marvel and DC characters they first saw at the theatres, and then read only the most recent comics which has changed a lot during the last decades.
Edited by Olav Bakken on 31 July 2018 at 7:24am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 8:08am | IP Logged | 6
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I would not discount entirely the notion of Stan having said the Hulk's change of hue was due to "coloring problems". By his own admission Stan's memory was less than photographic. (Remember, he created the No-Prize after he'd offered a cash prize to anyone who could explain what he had, in fact, already explained!)There are several different ways to read it. Someone may have asked Stan if it was a mistake, and he just said Yes because he didn't remember otherwise. Or, years after the fact he may have been told it was a mistake (by someone repeating the myth). Etc etc.
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Matt Hawes
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 7
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Here is what Stan Lee wrote in "Origins of Marvel Comics" (1974):
Stan Lee wrote:
| "...As an added fillip, I thought it would be interesting to have The Hulk's change color when he reverted to his monstrous self. Thinking it would be intensely dramatic-looking and somber, I arranged to have his body take on a gray hue in the first issue of his new magazine. But, as soon as the advanced copies reached us, I realized the effect was entirely different from what I had intended. In some of the scenes his gray skin color gave him a chameleonlike quality; the printer didn't seem able to give him a consistent shade of gray from page to page, or even from panel to panel. In fact, his skin was light gray in some places and almost black in others.There were a few panels where he seemed red, and for some reason which nobody could explain, in one close-up toward the end of our little epic he was bright emerald green...." |
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Stan Lee on the decision to go green wrote:
| ...Mainly because there were no other emerald-skinned rampagers extant at that particular time, the color I finally opted for was a bravely bedazzling basic green." |
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I have owned the original printing of "The Incredible Hulk" #1, and as JB noted above, there are several color knock-outs. I posted photos of the panels where Hulk was made green using that effect on the board a few years ago. As I recall, there are at least two instances of a green knock-out being used on Hulk. Stan may have forgot that Hulk was green in a scene or two because of that coloring technique, and so blamed it on "some reason nobody could explain," or he simply decided it was too much to actually explain what a color knock-out was in his introduction to the reprint?
Edited by Matt Hawes on 31 July 2018 at 8:47am
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 8
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The Hulk was so different between #1 and #6 in 1962 -- "true version"? Stan and Jack had a lot of trouble figuring out who the character even was!++++++++
And David used that early period of instability as an excuse to throw the character into a constant state of flux.
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 8:55am | IP Logged | 9
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Stan may have forgot that Hulk was green in a scene or two because of that coloring technique, and so blamed it on "some reason nobody could explain," or he simply decided it was too much to actually explain what a color knock-out was in his introduction to the reprint? +++++++
I can see that. Just look at Stan’s stock answer to “How did you create Spider-Man?”, which I believe he only started using over the last decade or two. Rather than mentioning the Spider (the pulp hero) or whatever actually inspired him, he’s taken to saying that he saw a fly crawling on the wall, and thought about doing a character with insect-themed powers. A quick and simple answer to a question he’s constantly asked.
You see this sort of thing a lot when actors go on publicity tours or are interviewed about their work. They (or publicity coordinators) come up with bite-sized stories and anecdotes which can be repeated again and again and again. This comes in handy when the truth is either too complex to describe succinctly, too “inside baseball”, or isn’t particularly interesting.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 10
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"Here's my chance to explain ________!" is almost a mantra for some writers. Even good ones. (I've fallen down that rabbit hole a few times myself.) Sadly, I've seen one very good writer slip down the hole and not yet reemerge! For him, "fixing" and "explaining" became the starting point.
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Brian Rhodes
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 10:30am | IP Logged | 11
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Did John Buscema ever draw the Hulk on a full comic book issue?
After Tales To Astonish, there was Fantastic Four #112 in 1971, the "Hulk vs. Thing" issue.
Also, the Superman and Spider-Man treasury from 1981, with the (first) Hulk vs. Superman fight.
(both featuring inks by Joe Sinnott)
And in 1989, Wolverine (the second series) numbers 7 and 8...featuring the Gray "Mr. Fixit" Hulk. Apparently, Buscema did his own inks in these.
Those are all that came to mind...
Edited by Brian Rhodes on 31 July 2018 at 10:40am
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Olav Bakken
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| Posted: 31 July 2018 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 12
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It's the same thing that sometimes happens in science fiction and fantasy fiction. Authors risk being so caught up in worldbuilding where everything is explained and given its own backstory that it takes more space than the actual story. But at least that's original creations and not an attempt to fix what others have done before them.
A similar topic; now and then writers are also given completely free hands to do whatever they want with a character in the form of a non-canonical mini-series. That's not really a problem as long as it doesn't affect the official title, but for me there is a limit for how many dozen times I want to read different versions of the same origin story for an established character.
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