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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 30 July 2018 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Valmor, John Buscema did draw some "Tales To Astonish" Incredible Hulk stories, as I recall.
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 30 July 2018 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Here's Larkin's original cover of the Hulk painting shown above...

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Olav Bakken
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Posted: 30 July 2018 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The very few Hulk stories John Buscema did happened in the 60s, and one can see that he has still not reached the level that he would be known for later:

https://marvelheroeslibrary.com/comics/comic-info.aspx?book= Tales+to+Astonish&comic=TTA-85

http://mike.jersey.free.fr/Buscema.htm


«In my 40+ years of reading comics, it became clear to me that there are basically two kinds of writers--CONSTRUCTIONISTS and DECONSTRUCTIONISTS. The history of comics is a battle between these two--the Builders and the Destroyers. They go back and forth on the various titles, "fixing" each others' "mistakes."»

Agree. A comic book title should always move forward. We may encounter old friends and enemies more than once, but that's not the same of always returning to some certain events in the past.

While an origin story is always interesting, the real job starts after the "honeymoon" is over and your established characters needs to engage in interesting stories that can stand on their own feet.

Not sure if we need an issue where we learn the reason why Banner always used purple pants and why they didn't tear when he turned into Hulk.

(As for DC, Swamp Thing went from a muck monster to a swamp god and earth elemental (turning superheroes into elementals was popular at DC for some time), and in the end he was able to literally walk out of walls if they were made of wood or some other plant materials. Then he went from being a member of the parliament of trees to the parliament of planets, and became a being of molten lava.)

It's never a good sign if bean counters sits in a meeting room discussing how to boost the sales of titles that no longer sell quit as good as they once did. What can they do to make sure their idea find the way to the headlines? And so we see announcements like "The most shocking death of a major character ever published", "A revelation that will change everything forever" or "The Marvel/DC universe will never be the same again".
It may get some attention for a limited amount of time, but the real fans of the comics just want good stories. They don't want to see any their favorite characters killed (even if it later turns out to have been just a clone), or major permanent changes for no specific reasons.

Edited by Olav Bakken on 30 July 2018 at 6:58pm
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 12:38am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

David’s take was that Banner was crazy long before the Hulk came along, and that the Hulk was essentially an outgrowth of the mental, physical, and possibly even sexual abuse perpetrated by his father. This served as the foundation for his entire run on the book, but I think it fundamentally runs against the character created by Lee and Kirby. 

***

Nothing that PAD ever wrote, that I recall, ever definitively established that Banner was "crazy." Just that he had a really crappy life, which was already established prior.

And certainly nothing about sexual abuse ever appeared during PAD's run. 

Banner had an alcoholic, abusive father who killed his mother. He was "cursed" from the get-go. The Hulk is an extension of that curse. 

Remember the episode of the HULK TV show where Banner reunites with his father and sister? His mother died while he was still young and he blames his father for it. So Banner had a lot of anger built up already even before exposing himself to the gamma rays.

Nobody ever complained about that episode, or if they did I never saw it. 

It wasn't preordained that Banner was going to become a monster with personality different than his usual one. It WAS preordained that Banner was going to be miserable no matter what. 

"Within us dwells..." OK, but then why didn't Sam Sterns become a Hulk? Or Emil Blonsky? Or Leonard Sampson? Obviously gamma rays effect everyone differently in Marvel Comics. 

I do agree that in retrospect the idea of a Grey Hulk was a mistake. The color problems from 1962 should've never been incorporated into the series as an "actual thing that happened." 

 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 12:47am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Nothing that PAD ever wrote, that I recall, ever definitively established that Banner was "crazy." Just that he had a really crappy life, which was already established prior.

And certainly nothing about sexual abuse ever appeared during PAD's run. 
+++++++

Did you not bother to read David’s essay, which I provided a link to? 

He specifically said that Banner would have “gone bonkers” with or without the effects of the gamma bomb. He also felt that, while never explicitly stated, there would likely have been sexual abuse involved in order to fracture Banner’s psyche to the degree that it had been.
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Greg McPhee
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 1:51am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

That's why Len Wein's run on "The Incredible Hulk" is one of my favourites.

Len Wein added to the character with developments, characters and plots working within the confines and tropes he was given. He didn't feel a need to add things in to Banner's backstory. 
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 3:43am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

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John Byrne
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 4:04am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

It wasn't preordained that Banner was going to become a monster with personality different than his usual one. It WAS preordained that Banner was going to be miserable no matter what.

•••

Banner fit Stan's "Everyman" model, seen elsewhere in Peter Parker, Hank Pym, Don Blake, even early Reed Richards. Brilliant but nerdy. "Worshipping from afar" the woman he loved. Experiencing that "some day I'll show the world!" frustration. (See the cover of AMAZING FANTASY 15.)

When I was in my early teens I could relate to those guys. I was one of them, at least in my own mind. But there was no psychosis attached. Didn't need to be, to create fantasies of POWER. Just being human was all it took.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 5:35am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

To say that the Lee-Kirby Bruce Banner, had he never become the Hulk, was destined to be "miserable" -- what justifies that? As JB pointed out, being lovelorn was standard for Stan Lee. And it didn't merely characterize Banner, but Betty Ross too. This was real go-to for Stan, like Judo defeating anybody.


Betty's pining for Bruce didn't have anything to do with her later becoming the Harpy. (I don't know from Betty as a hulk -- that's decades after my time.)



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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 6:21am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Banner fit Stan's "Everyman" model, seen elsewhere in Peter Parker, Hank Pym, Don Blake, even early Reed Richards. Brilliant but nerdy. "Worshipping from afar" the woman he loved. Experiencing that "some day I'll show the world!" frustration. (See the cover of AMAZING FANTASY 15.)

When I was in my early teens I could relate to those guys. I was one of them, at least in my own mind. But there was no psychosis attached. Didn't need to be, to create fantasies of POWER. Just being human was all it took.

***

As someone with mental illness problems virtually from birth, (particularly anger management), which is quite common among Gen X and Millennials (you can read about this everywhere), I related to Banner on a very different level. I related to his misery. And the Hulk's misery.

And again, Banner isn't psychotic. Never was. Mental illness, to the degree that he actually had that (a shitty life doesn't equal being mentally ill) doesn't equal psychosis. A psychotic is someone who's SO ill that s/he's a that contact is lost with external reality.

Peter Parker was "everyman" because he was working-class and had working-class problems and because of "the old Parker luck." The rest you mentioned? Not so much. Ben Grimm was more everyman than Reed Richards. Rick Jones was more everyman than Banner. 

And the big innovation in the Lee/Kirby/Ditko model of being a superhero was the idea that having super-powers didn't automatically make your life any better. Spider-Man, the Thing, the Hulk, the X-Men -- very different from the happy DC heroes. Even Daredevil was blind

To the degree that I identified with Marvel heroes it was because I was very, very unhappy. It went beyond nerdy-ness or what have you.


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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 6:22am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Len Wein added to the character with developments, characters and plots working within the confines and tropes he was given. He didn't feel a need to add things in to Banner's backstory. 

***

What backstory? Banner barely had one during the Wein years. We knew very little of his life before the gamma bomb went off. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 31 July 2018 at 6:24am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I do agree that in retrospect the idea of a Grey Hulk was a mistake. The color problems from 1962 should've never been incorporated into the series as an "actual thing that happened."

••

Sounds like you may not be aware of the REAL "thing that happened".

The Hulk was grey in his first issue as a deliberate choice. The colorist, using what is called a "knockout" technique (also seen, for example, in FF5), in one panel, for effect, colored the Hulk green. It was decided that looked better, and in the next issue he became green.

There were no "problems" at any point in this sequence of events.

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