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Greg Kirkman
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 29 July 2018 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | 1
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I recently read this:
David’s take was that Banner was crazy long before the Hulk came along, and that the Hulk was essentially an outgrowth of the mental, physical, and possibly even sexual abuse perpetrated by his father. This served as the foundation for his entire run on the book, but I think it fundamentally runs against the character created by Lee and Kirby.
Mantlo brought in the child abuse anger just before he left the book, and I often wonder what would have happened had that issue never been written. Mantlo clearly was just trying to root the Hulk’s anger in Banner’s sad childhood, rather than setting him up as someone with MPD or whatever.
For me, the purest, proper version of the Hulk is the one that we can all relate to. The one that inspired Ken Johnson to take the ball and run with it for the TV series: “Within each of us, ofttimes, there dwells a mighty and raging fury”. In other words, the Hulk is Banner’s normal, human anger and repression multiplied by a factor of about a million, which develops its own personality and memories. Connected to Banner, yet not Banner. His dark side made flesh.
I much prefer this more sci-fi version of the character than the psychobabble version, although I do like the first half of David’s run quite a bit. The point where I lose interest is when the central conflict of the series was removed by merging Banner’s personalities into the “Professor” Hulk.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 30 July 2018 at 9:24am
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 29 July 2018 at 9:59pm | IP Logged | 2
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Though not a fan of the Hulk springing from abuse, nor am I drawn to the notion of the rage of the Hulk raging within each of us; I like the idea of the two sides of the coin. That the specifics of the Hulk rely on the specifics of Banner.
Banner's intellectualism is an opposite to the Hulk's base psyche. To suggest 'within each of us' there dwells a Hulk, makes Banner less interesting to me. He got dosed by the gamma and because he was who he was, we got the Hulk.
The two are intertwined, but the Hulk, to me, is NOT some generic monster residing within all of us.
Edited by Peter Martin on 29 July 2018 at 10:00pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
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| Posted: 29 July 2018 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | 3
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I had Fireside's Captain America book.
I guess the one I saw the most of first was Sal Buscema's so I'd have a soft spot for his rendition. Impossible to not say Kirby's was definitive, though Ditko's was interesting. That first page really does pick some unrepresentative representatives, the second one is much better. I remember having some reprints of John Severin Hulk, one had Havok and Polaris gusting... that would've been under the 'Marvel Super-Heroes' banner. I owe so much to those Danny Fingeroth edited reprints, so disappointing to find out pages were cut sometimes (or many pages in the case of Amazing Spider-Man Annual #12). Anything with John or Marie Severin is a good comic book for me! They were wasted at Cracked magazine though...
I thought the Hulk was a kind of ID let loose by the gamma rays more than simply another personality or side of Banner's, although of course Stan & Jack would've known of the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde archetype.
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 29 July 2018 at 10:05pm
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Brian Hague
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Joined: 14 November 2006
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| Posted: 30 July 2018 at 2:42am | IP Logged | 4
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I was a big fan of John Severin's work at Cracked and Marie's at Crazy, so I would disagree that they were wasted at those magazines. If nothing else, the page rates for Cracked were significantly higher than John would have been making in regular comics. I'm certain he didn't feel his efforts amounted to nothing.
I agree that both did superior work on the Hulk. That run of Hulk stories with Trimpe penciling and John Severin inking are among my favorites. One of those introduced the Valkyrie as a separate character apart from the Enchantress, I believe, as she's a spirit thrown by the Enchantress into 60's-era protester Samantha Pennington. Latter issues of Marvel Super-Heroes reprinting those issues sometimes had humorous pages tacked on at the end featuring the Hulk in other roles such as Dagwood and Archie with art by Terry Austin! Fun stuff!
Edited by Brian Hague on 30 July 2018 at 2:43am
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Olav Bakken
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Joined: 15 June 2014
Posts: 241
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| Posted: 30 July 2018 at 5:07am | IP Logged | 5
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In issue 227, we are told that Banner and Hulk are two distinct personalities.
I never really related to the TV-show. Partly because it was so very different from the comic, which is what I enjoyed the most. Understandable, considering the budget and technological limitations. But also because I don't feel they did justice to Hulk. He was more than just a being of anger that only came out when Banner was in trouble, and he was able to have conversations in the comics. He was a lot more than just anger. And I think if humans were transformed into something where their human rage was multiplied a million times, they wouldn't just toss the bad guys into some bushes. They would literally kill them all.
The child abuse goes against what was established before. In issue 247 we get a flashback where Banner is standing at his parents' graves, saying "mom, dad, I still miss you".
And in the next issue, we learn that the soul gem was taken from Adam Warlock after his death, and then it ends up melting with the planet's core. Which goes against the fact that Thanos later finds it.
The first return of the grey Hulk as I am aware of is issue 302, where we get a short glimpse of him.
Just wish they hadn't brought in the childhood abuse, which would again leading to the mentally ill Banner with multiple personalities, including Jenkins' "Devil Hulk". Or Banner's pure rage, or maybe it was guilt, that looked like a kaiju.
In the old days you only related to two personalities; Banner and Hulk. Later three personalities when both the green and grey versions existed more or less simultaneously. But now you suddenly have countless versions hiding inside Banner, each representing a fragment of his personality.
Barry Windsor-Smith also accused Mantlo of stealing his story: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/05/23/multiple-publisher-d isorder-history-barry-windsor-smiths-hulk-big-red-monster-mo nsters/
Personally I like the idea that it was the gamma radiation that created a new being inside Banner, instead of releasing something already there.
The Professor version of the Hulk was later retconned so that he was just another personality, not a fusion between Banner and the green and grey Hulk.
Edited by Olav Bakken on 31 July 2018 at 1:22am
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 30 July 2018 at 5:11am | IP Logged | 6
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David’s take was that Banner was crazy long before the Hulk came along, and that the Hulk was essentially an outgrowth of the mental, physical, and possibly even sexual abuse perpetrated by his father. This served as the foundation for his entire run on the book, but I think it fundamentally runs against the character created by Lee and Kirby. Mantlo brought in the child abuse anger just before he left the book, and I often wonder what would have happened had that issue never been written. Mantlo clearly was just trying to root the Hulk’s anger in Banner’s sad childhood, rather than setting him up as someone with MPD or whatever. ••• Both drag in coincidences that did not exist before -- Banner was "prepared" to become the Hulk by his life up to that point. (DC retconned Two-Face the same way.) I much prefer the idea that "inside all of us there ofttimes dwells a mighty and raging fury."
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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 30 July 2018 at 5:42am | IP Logged | 7
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"...all else is forgotton... Bruce Branner is almost gone..."
Nothing about Banner pre-G-bomb uniquely prepped him to become the Hulk.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 30 July 2018 at 5:59am | IP Logged | 8
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At least we didn't have to deal with a Hulk-Totem!
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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 30 July 2018 at 6:07am | IP Logged | 9
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Olav Bakken wrote:
| And I think if humans were transformed into something where their human rage was multiplied a million times, they wouldn't just toss the bad guys into some bushes. They would literally kill them all. |
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In the pilot, Elaina Marks explained why this wouldn't happen.
Incidentally, with respect, your links aren't working. They are dead or take me to a homepage.
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Olav Bakken
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| Posted: 30 July 2018 at 6:11am | IP Logged | 10
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(Or that he is the avatar of some god of rage.)
I assume it's a reference to the Spider-Totem that Ezekiel told Spider-Man about. These retcons used to mine an already established origin of iconic characters makes everything bloated.
There was also some talk about how Wolverine was able to cheat death which involved either mistress Death herself or some demon. I honestly don't remember it clearly.
"Incidentally, with respect, your links aren't working. They are dead or take me to a homepage."
Well, just use google and the words Multiple Publisher Disorder – The History Of Barry Windsor-Smith's Hulk, Big Red, Monster And Monsters. That should take you to the article.
Edited by Olav Bakken on 30 July 2018 at 6:14am
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 30 July 2018 at 6:23am | IP Logged | 11
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I just can't believe we had to live with the grey Hulk for 54 issues--that's four and a half years! If the five-year turnover was still in effect, some poor kid's total experience with the Hulk was the grey Hulk! (All based on what is technically a production error!)
Still (since I just looked it up), I guess I can't blame Peter David for all of it. That well-respected writer(?) Al Milgrom is the one that started it, with editor Bob Harras...who ended up writing some of the issues.
And then we got smart Hulk with the cool haircut and the wifebeater t-shirt.
We didn't have the classic Hulk from Oct., 1986 to when Bruce Jones took over in Jan., 2002...16 years! Oh well, that's a bunch of back issues I DON'T have to buy (since stuff like grey Hulk drove me away from Marvel in the late 80's and I didn't return until the mid-2000's).
Edited by Eric Jansen on 30 July 2018 at 6:30am
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 30 July 2018 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 12
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I just can't believe we had to live with the grey Hulk for 54 issues--that's four and a half years! If the five-year turnover was still in effect, some poor kid's total experience with the Hulk was the grey Hulk! (All based on what is technically a production error!)•• A symptom of an all too common fanboy disorder: EVERYTHING MUST BE EXPLAINED!! I confess to having succumbed to this a few times myself, but the longer I've been in the Biz, the better I have become at avoiding those traps. Some, tho, burrow deeper and deeper.
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