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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 1
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Lots to think about. I guess we're lucky that when Tony Stark with banner's assistance 'cured' the Hulk but ended up with Banner with Hulk's brain that they didn't keep him like that for a couple of years. I think what they used to use for a two or three issue story in the past somewhere got turned into a years long epic tale that usually turned out to not be memorable at all because the next writer would either undo or ignore it anyway, or just because of them stretching things out for way too long?
+++++++
The Hulk as a superhero with Banner’s brain just doesn’t work. For short bursts, maybe, but the other shoe must always drop, as at the end of Mantlo’s run.
The Jekyll/Hyde riff is at the core of the Hulk’s character. Even civilians (in large part due to the success of the TV show) see him as a cathartic expression of repressed rage. Without the duality and the eternal conflict between man and monster, the character just doesn’t work.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 01 August 2018 at 4:06pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133531
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 2
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They already have a smart monster. He's called the Thing. Thru years of attending cons, one thing above all has stood out: give some fans the chance to create their own characters, and they will try to do everything they've ever wanted to do, all on the first pass. Let that mentality ooze up into the Companies -- which it has -- and these people will set about de-uniquing the characters they get to handle, because they want "their" characters to have ALL the toys.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15993
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 3
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Hulk with Banner's brain is going down the route of giving the fans what they think they want. I think it kind of works OK, provided (a) it is clearly temporary (b) it doesn't last very long and (c) it all goes tragically wrong. Something that is OK for a few months, but definitely shouldn't be lasting half a year or more.
The raging Hulk is the iconic one, but there is a part of me that hankers after that slightly more crafty, articulate and nasty one from very early on.
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 4
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As noted, the Jekyll/Hyde influence was there from the start, and there’s certainly potential to be mined from it: Banner seemingly having control over the Hulk, but struggling against the Hulk’s innate savagery...and perhaps even his own addiction to the power.
JB was planning on taking the character back in that direction, and I often wonder where the character would be now, if he’d had the chance. That first seed was planted in HULK # 319, with Banner voicing his frustrations about not being able to control the great power thrust upon him by fate, and thinking that there might have been a way from the start to be full control of both his forms.
That, of course, calls way, way back to HULK # 4. As soon as Rick uses the gamma projector to turn the Hulk back to Banner, Banner modifies the machine to put him in control of the Hulk’s body, so the Hulk can become a force for good. Or so he thinks.
Lots of story potential, there. Subsequent comics, as well as the TV show, locked down the idea of the Hulk as a curse which Banner was trying to cure himself of (which in itself is a great idea with lots of subtext and emotional resonance), but Stan and Jack established early on that Banner’s innate altruism and scientific curiosity would cause him to be dangerously tempted to tame the beast within as a force for good.
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 5
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The raging Hulk is the iconic one, but there is a part of me that hankers after that slightly more crafty, articulate and nasty one from very early on.++++++
Then what are your thoughts on David’s Gray Hulk, Peter? He clearly swewed closer to the original version of the character, but with a lot more snark and nastiness. In David’s psychological model of the character, the Gray Hulk was the ego. Basically, David treated him as Banner’s repressed and rebellious inner teenager. His snarky, sexual, selfish side.
Not quite the early Hulk, though.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14863
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 6
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I think (if I recall correctly) Miller and Romita Jr.'s later MAN WITHOUT FEAR did rewrite some established history, and I don't know if it's considered canon; I think readers and later writers (except for the TV show) tend to ignore it.
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Elektra, as presented in the original Daredevil run, was a normal young woman who was deeply affected by the assassination of her father and ended up becoming a bounty hunter and assassin on the path to avenging her father.
Elektra, as presented by Miller’s MAN WITHOUT FEAR, was already a thrillseeking sociopath by the time she met Matt in college and was looking for excuses to beat people up. It seemed like the death of her father freed her to be who she always was, rather than her being corrupted by the need for vengeance.
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Valmor J. Pedretti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 October 2011 Location: Brazil Posts: 786
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 7
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Guys, I know I'm late but thanks for the Buscema Hulk tips!!
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 8
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Michael Roberts wrote: "Elektra, as presented by Miller’s MAN WITHOUT FEAR, was already a thrillseeking sociopath by the time she met Matt in college and was looking for excuses to beat people up. It seemed like the death of her father freed her to be who she always was, rather than her being corrupted by the need for vengeance."
This is an evolution in the origin of characters that plays merry hell with the conventions of the genre. Can there actually be an origin point for characters anymore, or must everyone from now on simply be a more true expression of their already extant, inner selves after a tragedy takes place?
The Hulk and Two-Face MUST have been fractured identities prior to the events which we were previously told made them. After all, dissociative disorders don't work that way (if they work at all.)
I look forward to seeing tales of the seven-year old Batman skulking about in the shadows of Wayne Manor, peering down at guests from atop the family armoire, and leaping from drapery to drapery in pursuit of fleeing pets. "Bruce, honey?" Martha Wayne calls out, getting ready for a social engagement. "Have you seen Mommy's earring?"
The half-open closet door behind her swings shut, revealing the boy, shrouded in shadow, who grimly intones, "Fear not, citizen. Your missing item WILL be located if I have to search every room, every corner, every inch of this mansion until it reveals itself. If I must plunge into the Stygian depths of the cave structures below our house, where the demon Bat-God moves arthritically about, stiffly hissing at the stale, dead air, I WILL find this earring of yours, and woe betide those who were fool enough to have taken it!!" He leaps to the top of her dresser and then out of the room through the leaded glass window. "Vengeance, Mother! Vengeance, I tell you, will be ours!!"
Or do we already have this on the CW?
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 9
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I have one of those Flashback minus one comics where Peter Parker's parents were Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D., and in another we see Wolverine leaving Canadian friends James and Heather Hudson and crossing paths with pilot Ben Grimm, Nick Fury, Carol Danvers, and Sabretooth all before Fantastic Four #1 (1961)!
You might not like or want to find these Flashback comics from 1997.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | 10
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I remember them well, Rebecca. I didn't buy any of them, but I remember them.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 11
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I forgot too, another Spider-Man Flashback title shows Flash Thompson is the way he is because his alcoholic Dad used to threaten and beat the family up. Not sure how I feel about that one, I guess it could sensitize someone somewhere, but it sounds like this kind of pre-history revelation thing became a cliche at Marvel in the '90s-onward.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 01 August 2018 at 9:35pm | IP Logged | 12
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Man, I sure hope Flash Thompson is kept far away from any sources of Gamma Radiation... Or alien symbiotes...
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