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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
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| Posted: 07 May 2018 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 1
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If we could establish that Odin imbued the Destroyer with invulnerability borrowed from Balder, then Speedy could bring the rampaging robot down with an arrow made from a sprig of mistletoe, something only Robin, with his in-depth study of mythology, among many other subjects, would be able to figure out.
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Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8594
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| Posted: 08 May 2018 at 1:31am | IP Logged | 2
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Batman has the experience and the hand to hand combat training.
Spider-Man has everything else: speed, agility, and strength.
As much as I love Batman, Peter would have to make a big mistake or fall for a trap set by Batman ahead of time to lose that fight. Bruce wouldn't be able to lay a hand on him, and would end up knocked out and possibly webbed up.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
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| Posted: 08 May 2018 at 5:32am | IP Logged | 3
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The "separate universes" was and is fanboy twaddle.*** I'm sure you're referring to AVENGERS/JLA. I saw it as an homage to the old JLA/JSA Earth-One/Earth-Two stories. I'm very, very sure that's what Kurt Busiek intended. •• The basic model for these crossovers was established with the first Superman/Spider-Man. This is the model used in most of the subsequent crossovers, including the two I did. Making it separate universes opened a can of worms and threw it in the readers faces. Imagine, just for a moment, actual being that most rare of beasts, a new reader (arriving riding a unicorn, no doubt). Which is an easier access point, one universe or many? DC made its own universe incredibly complicated with its multiple universes. So much so they decided to fix it -- and made it worse. The crossovers avoided that -- at first. Then the wrong people took the reins.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 08 May 2018 at 5:42am | IP Logged | 4
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I prefer the "shared earth" approach for reasons already stated, but they provide an easier access point.
Let's suppose Daredevil was going to team up with Aquaman. Imagine the scenario: Aquaman arrives at Murdock's office, asking for assistance on a matter of nautical law, specifically pertaining to exploitation by the surface world. In the story, Aquaman arrives in New York, visits Murdock's office, etc, etc.
All very accessible, I feel. And quite joyful. And logical (Aquaman reads how Murdock has dealt with some aspects of nautical law and seeks him out due to reputation).
Now imagine if it requires universe-spanning journeys. Neither Aquaman or Daredevil really lend themselves to big, cosmic stuff, but it'd mean a story getting bogged down in the how of getting to the universe. At least with shared earth, it can be as simple as Aquaman heading to New York and seeking legal help.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 08 May 2018 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | 5
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Shared Earth is easy enough to comprehend. If there's a threat so dangerous that Superman requires Thor or Warbird's help, then he needs Green Lantern or Captain Marvel's help - so when the DC heroes don't show, there's no reason for the Marvel heroes to show, for the very same reasons.
Or put it another way; Batman never teamed with Wolverine or the Silver Surfer in the Brave and the Bold. Nor did he team up with the Doom Patrol or Orion. That doesn't mean they don't exist... it means he never encountered them.
Access was a sloppy character created to facilitate inter-universal crossovers... but a shared universe works better.
The first four DC/Marvel* crossovers were all in shared universes, with no problem. When facing Darkseid and Dark Phoenix, Robin mentioned summoning a super team, and mentioned the Avengers as easily as the Justice League.
Why does it have to be so hard?
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8120
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| Posted: 08 May 2018 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | 6
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JB wrote:
| I imagine Batman keeps tabs on superfolk, good and bad. "Be prepared" is his number one mantra. |
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There's this one bit of Batman meeting Daredevil that I always liked:
Batman sizing up Spider-Man ahead of time would not be that difficult, but when I requested a Batman/Wolverine commission, I envisioned that it took place around X-Men #139, not long after switching to the brown costume and still before everyone and their grandmother knew much about him, and so would give Batman a run for his money....at first. I imagined Batman figuring out Wolverine's healing factor, heightened senses, and Adamantium skeleton during the fight, and then find a way to use that to his advantage.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
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| Posted: 09 May 2018 at 4:37am | IP Logged | 7
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Vinny... I do not disagree with you about Batman vs. Wolverine, but honestly... how much observation would be required when Wolverine attacked? A lot of time was spent - especially up to the X-Men #139 era - showing how blatant he was about his attacks. He would come at Batman the same way he comes at Juggernaut, Magneto, or anyone else - blindly and full out charge. A couple quick judo throws and Wolverine blows his top. At that point... Batman's already won.
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Drew Spence
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 229
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| Posted: 09 May 2018 at 6:29am | IP Logged | 8
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Still always depends on who's writing the story. You got 3 choices...
1) Raw data based on statistics. "Can lift" "Takes damage like" "Fast as" "Brain size (lol)"
2) Story-based: What they usually do or have done in similar scenarios based on what previous writers have done.
3) Your own take: What I think they would do as an avid reader.
No different than Kirk verse Luke. Vader verse Spock.
When I put all three into account, I get an initial skirmish that Spiderman wins from webbing that allows Spiderman to swing off. Spiderman is studying the lore of Batman (maybe gets it wrong so he dislikes and mis-understands Batman). Batman analyzes everything Spiderman and formulates a plan.
Second fight, goes Batman's way heavy, early and seems like a win- Spiderman is conflicted and trying to gain the upper hand. Eventually Peter loses his temper and goes too hard on Batman and thinks he's won the physical confrontation, which leads him into Batman's trap and Batman's plan works to defeat Spiderman (probably with a booby-trapped spidey-gadget that backfires- like the webbing does something TO Spiderman. = The Batman mutated webbing doesn't dissolve and Spidey is captured by the Bats.
Batman gets his butt kicked, but still wins.
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
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| Posted: 09 May 2018 at 6:37am | IP Logged | 9
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Let's assume that Chris Claremont isn't writing the scene so Wolverine isn't telegraphing his powers as he's using them :)
But yes, Wolverine attacks impulsively, and Batman knows full well how to take advantage of that. The Adamantium skeleton would just require a few unsuccessful arm-breaking blows for Batman to figure out that there's something different about him. Then he'd probably apply the same logic that JB and CC used in the first place - that in order for someone to survive having metal (or metal-laced if you are Jim Shooter) bones, a healing factor must be in play. Wolverine's heightened senses are not demonstrated as often, but I suspect that that's where Batman has the winning advantage once he figures that out.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09 May 2018 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | 10
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Vinny - funny line about Claremont. Truly, though... what combat powers does Wolverine have? Claws (not much of a surprise) and healing factor (okay, THAT'S a surprise.)
As for adamantium... I believe that Wolverine moves differently due to the weight differential from any other 5'6" person. Batman would not fail to notice this.
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Andy Mokler
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Joined: 20 January 2006
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| Posted: 09 May 2018 at 8:11pm | IP Logged | 11
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I don't dislike Batman. In fact, I think I like Batman. But I am very weary of unbeatable Batman. From what I can tell, he's smarter, stronger, faster and more driven than any human on Earth.
Isn't that just a bit much? Being the best at just one of those things would be amazing but it seems there is nothing that anyone, anywhere is better at than Batman.
I find it rather ridiculous and ultimately, ironic, considering that was always the big gripe about Superman. That he was too good at too many things and unrelatable. How does making Batman even more of an expert and the best at everything and capable of actually beating Superman make for a good character?
Reminds of my buddy's kid who would always set his lineup in Madden video games where his players were all ranked 99+ so he could beat the muffins out of the opponent. How is that interesting, challenging or fun?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 10 May 2018 at 5:49am | IP Logged | 12
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This is not about "unbeatable" Batman. This is about weighing the skill sets of two characters and deciding which would win in a fight. That done, Batman would beat Spider-Man.* Galactus, not so much. -------------- * Of course, it would all be a misunderstanding, and they would end with a tremendous respect for each other!
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