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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 09 April 2018 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 1
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Eric, you make a good point concerning one of DC's main problems with their reboots. Every attempt tries to re-conceptualize not just the basic character, but also their entire past, and serves it up instantly like a microwave pizza. This means that discrepancies and contradictions that would have occurred naturally over time are instead instantly conceived and foisted onto the public all at once, making every reboot a botched makeover from the start.
The minute the Crisis was over, creators were rushing in to fill in this new continuity's missing history and solve the mystery of who WAS there if now-expurgated character A wasn't. If we're not going to go with the original, silly origin of Super-Horse, what are we going to do with him? Who is the NEW Comet, the Super-Horse? How about Mer-Boy? And Bird-Boy? How can we reclaim every single item from the past we just discarded and bring them all back again, immediately and perfectly in sync with our NEW DC Universe continuity?
Rather than leaving all that to be determined later and simply telling stories forward, DC was intoxicated by all that open, untrammeled ground BEHIND them now. After all, anyone can write some cheeseball bank robber with super swimfins or something for Superman to fight this month. If I write the story of how he lost his virginity, then I, and only I, will forevermore be the guy who wrote the story of how Superman Lost His Virginity! The past is far more prestigious and permanent than the mangy ol' malleable present.
Except no, once too many mistakes pile up, and they pile up quickly under this new model, pfft! Everything goes away and we all start over again! Which is terrific, because I have this really great idea for a story in which Superman Loses His Virginity! For the First Time!!
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 09 April 2018 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 2
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The minute the Crisis was over, creators were rushing in to fill in this new continuity's missing history and solve the mystery of who WAS there if now-expurgated character A wasn't. If we're not going to go with the original, silly origin of Super-Horse, what are we going to do with him? Who is the NEW Comet, the Super-Horse? How about Mer-Boy? And Bird-Boy? How can we reclaim every single item from the past we just discarded and bring them all back again, immediately and perfectly in sync with our NEW DC Universe continuity? ************************************************************ ************************ I wonder how much of that came from fans constantly asking them those types of questions? I guess JB would know how often some fan as a con would ask about "character X" or "issue XXX" and if they were in continuity.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133318
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Posted: 09 April 2018 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | 3
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That was creeping rot if ever I saw it. When I started in The Biz, circa 1973, "continuity" was a word that was only just beginning to be heard in the halls of fandom, and then only from the walking wounded out in the border lands. There was no need to ask what was "in continuity," because EVERYTHING was!
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 2:29am | IP Logged | 4
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John Byrne wrote:
There was no need to ask what was "in continuity," because EVERYTHING was! |
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I remember being quite excited when Spider-Man showed up in a Transformers comic.
Yet I do recall some having a problem with it. "Why hasn't anyone mentioned giant robots before?" or "Giant robots from Cybertron don't really work in the Marvel Universe."
First, how do they know Marvel characters HADN'T mentioned giant robots? Could have happened off-panel. Perhaps Jonah Jameson mentioned it over lunch or the Avengers mentioned it during a meeting. All off-panel, of course.
Secondly, how can they accept magical realms, giant aliens and various robot characters, but not the Transformers? I could understand if Transformers showed up in LAW & ORDER, but I had zero issues with them being in the MU.
I simply *accepted* it. Spider-Man teamed up with the Autobots. It happened. I enjoyed the story. Why pick holes in it?
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 5
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Brian H. - some points...
ITEM: Another of COIE's biggest faults is that NOT every title and feature restarted from ground zero. Green Lantern, Batman, the Titans (including Wonder Girl), all carried on from pre-Crisis canon - so the instant ANY "contamination" of the new universe met the old universe, it was instantly screwed. (Mr. Byrne deftly avoided it in MoS when Batman met Superman... but who else even CARED?)
ITEM: For the Marvel Universe, everybody should have Gungnir and Quantum bands as well. Maybe an Ultimate Nullifier too. And the In-Betweener and Galactus should be on the team. So should the Super Adaptoid if you think his capabilities are sufficient. And Sise-Neg if he's still around.
ITEM: In the DC Universe, you could probably add the Infinity Man and the Spectre. And a passel of those ultra super mega heroes that Grant Morrison created for JLA. And let's add Duplicate Boy and Amazo to Justice League Infinity. And don't forget Mopee and Qwsp and Zook. And YOU get a power ring, and YOU get a power ring, and EVERYBODY gets a power ring!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133318
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 6
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Yet I do recall some having a problem with it. "Why hasn't anyone mentioned giant robots before?" ••• When Stan and Jack and Steve started "world building" and established that the Hulk and Spider-Man lived in the same reality as the FF, it did not occur to me to ask why none of them had been mentioned before in each other's books.* ------------- * Except the Hulk, who had been mentioned in FF5 -- AS A COMICBOOK CHARACTER!!
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12709
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 11:10am | IP Logged | 7
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The fun is a balance between the same reality but almost always different adventures. When, for example, the Lizard debuted and threatened to (er) swamp the world with "super-powerful lizard army," that peril was properly Spider-Man's alone to deal with. How not fun if our hero had an emergency button eliciting the help of Thor or Dr. Strange or the FF at the drop of a hat?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133318
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 8
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Something many modern fans do not understand! Every book is not THE AVENGERS or THE JUSTICE LEAGUE!!
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 9
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When Stan and Jack and Steve started "world building" and established that the Hulk and Spider-Man lived in the same reality as the FF, it did not occur to me to ask why none of them had been mentioned before in each other's books.*
***
Indeed.
I always say to folk that we don't see every character's moment of every day. Who's to say that Captain America or Doctor Doom haven't talked about Autobots in the privacy of their homes? Maybe J. Jonah Jameson has discussed the Autobots - in private and off-panel.
I don't know why fans worry about it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133318
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 10
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There is a layer of fandom that insists EVERYTHING FITS TOGETHER. I saw an extreme example of this in the form of fans who asked if the MAN OF STEEL reboot "was what Seigel and Shuster intended." They seemed convinced there was a "bible" that covered everything ever done with Superman.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 11
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I saw an extreme example of this in the form of fans who asked if the MAN OF STEEL reboot "was what Seigel and Shuster intended."
***
Well, if they had intended it, that's some foresight, eh, given that MAN OF STEEL was published 48 years after the character first appeared?
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Richard Stevens Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1954
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | 12
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Making Wonder Woman's bracelets jibe with invulnerability is a piece of cake. Sure, she's every bit as bulletproof as Superman, but she uses her bracelets and her SKILL to control the ricochets and protect everyone else around her.
Fits perfectly with her mission of peace and gives her a cool visual that showcases her skills without throwing punches or busting out a sword. Kind of a Cap throwing his shield vibe.
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