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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2365
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Posted: 29 March 2018 at 10:35pm | IP Logged | 1
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I'm torn on this one. In this industry where so many people phone it in, I find that I appreciate it anytime an artist bothers to use reference. Painters, especially, usually work from reference--photos or models. As an artist myself, if I want to step it up a bit, I pull out the reference material (my files and notebooks of clippings I've spent years collecting). The closer I get to the original, the more successful I consider the piece to be.
However, there is a difference between taking a brightly lit underwear model and transforming him into a moody Batman on a rooftop overlooking the city and copying someone else's artistic expression. (One can argue that the underwear model was still posed and lit by the catalog photographer in his own artistic way, but that argument only goes so far.) I have to agree with Peter Martin above--too many of the artistic choices in the painting were chosen by the photographer.
If I copy a car in the background of a newspaper photo about a building on fire, that's different than exactly copying an Ansel Adams or Annie Leibovitz photo with all their lighting and framing, etc.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2365
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Posted: 29 March 2018 at 10:52pm | IP Logged | 2
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Of course, I do have to give the artist (Greg Ruth, is it?) credit for moving the arms and the imaginative use of the cape and the city inside. If it was me, I would have made more variations though--keep the "spirit" of the original but not all the details. The stomach muscles didn't have to be kept exactly the same (different models' six-packs always look different); every single finger didn't have to be exactly copied; and the feet could have been spread apart just enough to make Batman look less like a ballet dancer.
Why are Batman's gray thighs darker than his gray arms and torso? Only because the photo guy's thighs were wearing black pants, probably.
I give credit to anybody who can paint realistically and copy so exactly (whether he traced it to begin with or not--if tracing were that easy to pull off successfully, EVERYBODY would do it), but sometimes being LESS exact is actually better.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 29 March 2018 at 10:55pm
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Joseph Gauthier Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 March 2009 Posts: 1421
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Posted: 30 March 2018 at 12:05am | IP Logged | 3
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...and the feet could have been spread apart just enough to make Batman look less like a ballet dancer.
.................
A bit off topic, but that was my first thought about this otherwise beautiful image- it doesn't capture the character at all. Of course Batman is graceful, certainly as graceful as a ballet dancer, but the motivation is all wrong. The man drawn in the Batman costume is a man leaping for the pure joy of leaping; a man with no care in the world, beyond his next thrill.
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Darren Taylor Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 6024
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Posted: 30 March 2018 at 5:17am | IP Logged | 4
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Swipe-using another artists work (whole or part) intentionally but used as though the work was their own.
Homage-using another artists work (whole or part) intentionally but with the audiences understanding that it originated with another artists.
Photo Ref- Er...using a photo to refer to during the process of producing art.
The issue with photo-ref-ing is to what extend do you use it. To figure out the pose, where the hair line should go at the tilt of the head, lighting, texture et al. Or just trace the whole thing!
Any tool that becomes a crutch is no longer a tool but a handicap.
-D
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4881
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Posted: 30 March 2018 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 5
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When a large portion the creative process takes place in the reference rather than your own work, it's a problem.
This obviously isn't just a case of using a photo for reference, it's depending on it for a large chunk of the creative process. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a photo that was copies in order to add the skyline as well.
Darren - I would describe an homage as a piece of art inspired by an existing piece and done in a way that doesn't try to hide that connection. In comics most of these are easily identified, whether it's a nod to Fantastic Four #1, Amazing Fantasy #15, Giant-Size X-Men #1 or some other well-known work.
Pop artist Roy Lichtenstein swiped. Comic artist Greg Land swipes. Wally Wood had a famous quote about it - "Never draw what you can copy, never copy what you can trace, never trace what you can cut out and paste up." So it's a long-used method.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133324
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Posted: 30 March 2018 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 6
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"...and never do any of that if you can hired someone to do it for you."
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 30 March 2018 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | 7
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I'd call it photo reference. In fact I'd probably have a hard time believing that the photo didn't come from an artist reference book. Neal Adams cured me of my objection to artists like Greg Land. His point was, if you can find reference on a background or pose, would you use it or whatever muddled impression you have in your brain? So, it's your brain vs. the rest off the world. If you find a photo that nails the look your trying to hit, trace it. BTW, this is paraphrasing and my interpretation. He ended my objection to Greg Land with this, "Are you drawing professionally? He is,and getting paid well. How are your morals about tracing now?"
Edited by Stephen Churay on 30 March 2018 at 4:44pm
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 30 March 2018 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | 8
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Edited by Stephen Churay
Edited by Stephen Churay on 30 March 2018 at 4:43pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133324
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Posted: 30 March 2018 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | 9
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Apparently Neal and I will have to agreed to disagree."
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 30 March 2018 at 6:43pm | IP Logged | 10
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Stephen C. - I disagree with Mr. Adams also. "How are your morals about tracing now?" Consider this - YOU'RE THE CUSTOMER. You DO get to decide if you like it or not, and you DO get to decide if it's good enough for you or not.
I love photorealism, but I love art more. There are a handful of artists whose art I adore that isn't really quite a "slice of life" - but I'm purchasing a book for entertainment, not instruction.
Were I an artist and I would find the perfect pose for Captain Fonebone, I believe I would have it on my table as a reference... but I wouldn't copy it line for line. If naught else, that's not what I'm being paid for.
Bottom line: if Mr. Adams asks, "Are you drawing professionally?", my answer is, "No, and that's not the point. I'm PAYING his 'getting paid well' salary, and if he wants to keep getting my money, he won't do things that aren't acceptable to me.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15953
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Posted: 30 March 2018 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | 11
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Stephen, the question is: would you call it a swipe or reference?
Your answer seems to be: tracing is OK, so therefore it's reference.
In which case, what is a swipe?
By the way, the photo doesn't come from a photo reference book, it comes from the wonderful world of microstock photography. (here, in fact: LINK)
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 30 March 2018 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | 12
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I call it relying very heavily on photo reference. I tend to thibk of swiping as using the same medium. Liefeld using Frank Miller's page layout with character poses is a swipe.
Adams, as he explained to me, that he will trace if needed. He has a rendering technique that generally keeps it from looking traced and fits his normal style. Greg Land's technique looks traced. Some of his females change their faces if he uses two different models as reference for the came character. Adams also has a ridiculous working knowledge of how things are engineered and why. So, if working from a photo, he can mentally fill in gaps if the photo can't provide enough info.
Also, keep in mind, before the photograph artists still traced using a camera obscura room.
As to the origin of the photo above. Ok, I was wrong. That said, there are several books that contain models in various poses to be used as reference. Many even cater to the comic book artist. The photo above looks like a typical photo from one of those books. My mistake.
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