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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 31 January 2018 at 11:07pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Erik Larsen would be right if the only character we are allowed to care about in a Superboy story is Superboy. Of course no real writer would do that. 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 31 January 2018 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

JB wrote: "I remember "hypertime" making its debut with a montage that included a shot of the Superman/Frankenstein monster scene from GENERATIONS, ignoring the fact that the series was identified -- right on the covers!! -- as an "imaginary story".

Not a goof. Right there alongside that image from Generations are scenes from other imaginary stories, showing Bruce Wayne Jr. and Superman-Red and Superman-Blue, along with such glitches in continuity as the 60's era "Plaz," his pal, Gordy Trueblood, and the Wonder Family. The point of Hypertime was that every story happened, imaginary or not, somewhere at some time, and could be accessed through this new phenomenon. 

It was hoped that we could thereafter stop arguing about what "really" happened and what didn't; what counted and what did not. Hypertime said, "Everything counts. You can get to the 'reality' of any story we've ever printed and it will be just as valid as any other."

Including Generations in that construct was a means of saying to current readers that these rules applied to the new stuff as well. Even if a story disassociated itself from current canon by means of the imaginary story tag, it still counted and could be involved in future stories through the medium of Hypertime. Nothing was left out.


Edited by Brian Hague on 31 January 2018 at 11:18pm
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 12:03am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

It's hilarious to me that not too long after DC destroys the Multiverse ("It's too confusing!") and says there's only ONE Earth, they do a couple of hundred of mini-graphic novels based on other Earths!  (Despite the disclaimer that some happened and some might not have happened, it's right there in the name--"ElseWORLDS"!)
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 12:15am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Other non-origin related character deaths that preceded Phoenix's include Ferro-Lad, Triplicate Girl, Invisible Kid, Chemical King, the original Beast Boy, Frederick Foswell, Dorma, Jarella, Pamela Hawsley, Junior Juniper, Namora, Miss America, the Ancient One, Thunderbird, the Swordsman, Omega the Unknown, Flash rogue Roscoe Dillon, the Green Goblin, Sharon Carter, and the Burglar who shot Uncle Ben. Although most of the Doom Patrol was later revealed to have survived, at the time of the Phoenix story, all except Robotman were thought to be dead.

Immediately prior to the Death of Phoenix storyline, DC did two big stories featuring the murders of Mister Terrific, a hero first seen in 1942, and Iris West Allen, who was introduced alongside Barry Allen in the first Silver Age Flash story in 1956.

Phoenix helped grease the skids and encouraged many to abandon stewardship of their characters, but death in fiction never goes out of fashion.

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 12:36am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Elseworlds publications carried this disclaimer: "In Elseworlds, super-heroes are taken from their usual settings and put into strange times and places- some that have existed and others that can't, couldn't, or shouldn't exist. The result is stories that make characters who are as familiar as yesterday seem as fresh as tomorrow."

As poorly written as I find that introduction to the concept, it nevertheless sufficiently differentiates the idea from standard parallel worlds and "what if" divergent timelines, making it clear that the stories presented under the Elseworlds banner are imaginative exercises and not newly established worlds existing alongside the regular titles. 

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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 1:27am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

That disclaimer really avoids saying whether these stories were really happening or not.  There's no "This is an imaginary story!" certainty in it.

Nevertheless, a whole bunch of those Elseworlds were established as parallel Earths of the Multiverse when DC finally brought it back.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 2:40am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Later, yes, but at the time, they were striving to still do "imaginary story" type concepts without the fan-backlash associated with that label, while maintaining that there was only one, true, DC continuity following Crisis. 

Considering how much better some of those Elseworlds books were than the regular fare, I'm still glad they made the attempt to thread that needle.

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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 9:45am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Adam S: Yeah that was clearly a goof. There's also now officially an Earth-38 which is based on the world in GENERATIONS. (I hope it's only "based on"!)

***

Gotta say, I like that they winked at Superman's "birth year" that way.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Brian H. - that is a most impressive list of expired characters. If I strained, I might think of one or two to add... but still, very neat.

That being said - none of them were very significant, with the possible exception of the Green Goblin and Sharon Carter. Phoenix was - at the moment of her destruction - a main character in a hot selling book. Again, no disrespect to your list, but I don't think the death of Triplicate Girl or Junior Juniper sent quite such a shock through the readership.

ITEM: The Crisis created too many opportunities for "Hey, this character is called 'Kara' or 'Hawkman', wink wink nudge nudge!" Too many non-references that were very obviously writers satisfying themselves... and that should be done in the privacy of one's home. With the curtains drawn.

ITEM: Hypertime was a device to take advantage of "Kingdom Come" and its ratings, if you will. It should have been mentioned, described simply ("every story happened somewhere!") and then let alone.

ITEM: DC's numbering the alternate universes is the height of idiocy. This means that A) the multiverse confusion gets smashed right back in readers' faces, B) there is a limit to the multiple Earths, and C) seemingly contrarily, DC has to POPULATE each of those Earths. And such creation DEMANDS that at some point, those universes have to cross over... so f*ck the Crisis.

ITEM: I infer that two series started the "death and the Real Worlds are okay and easy in comics" - and with all due respect to Mr. Byrne, the Phoenix Saga wasn't it. That story was carefully planned and plotted, leading up to an incredible climax; not arbitrary, not simple, and not incidental. I see "The Dark Knight Returns" and "Watchmen" as the series that infected comics with the attitude that what they'd never shown was now okay, and just a throw-away. Catwoman was a whore? No problem! The Joker raped Jason Todd before blowing him up (a discarded element)? Sure! Kill every citizen of Coast city? Let's do it!

I (and others) have referred to this as the Glum and Gritty era of comics, and it was, I think, the point at which comic stories started getting into too much "real world." Yeah, Kandor was stolen - and every single citizen survived. Metropolis was also shrunk and captured - and every single citizen survived. The Legion was captured and held prisoner - and all lived. Killing any of these didn't seem acceptable, and that's part of why Superboy worked, even without a threat of death. Yeah, you knew that Superboy would save Lana and Pete - but meanwhile, you also knew that Luthor would kill them, sooner or later. THAT was exciting story enough for us.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

One more time: the death of Phoenix was not "carefully plotted ". It was my reaction to the latest manifestation of Shooter's Whim of Iron. ( Me: "F**k that, I'd rather kill her!")

(Curously, I saw a blog recently that repeated the Shooter inspired myth that I quit X-MEN because I was angry over being "forced" to kill Phoenix. Six months later? Talk about a slow burn!)

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Mr. Byrne, my apologies. The death of Phoenix read so cleanly and clearly that it seemed to be a well plotted and planned event.

Come to think of it, it STILL reads a hell of a lot better than the current "Who can we kill this month to get some attention?" dreck.

That story that was your reaction was better than the vast majority of current plotting. 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Erik Larsen's logic falls down in that he seems to think knowing a predetermined future precludes excitement on behalf of the reader. I think if the reader is not sufficiently wrapped up in the story that they have the presence of mind to ruminate on such things, either they or the writer already has a problem.

Take for example, Fantastic Four issues #49 to #50. Larsen's logic suggests that only someone reading this in 1966 would be have a sense of 'anything can happen' or danger, while anyone reading it as a back issue already knows the FF title carried on and therefore Galactus didn't eat the earth. Which is bollocks. Whether you are reading it as a back issue or if you were reading it in 1966 straight from the newsstand, the likelihood is that if you thought for moment, you'd likely guess that the FF will win, but you're even more likely to be too engrossed in the story to do so.

And really the enjoyment of the story doesn't hinge on the uncertainty of the outcome. It hinges on things like spectacle, invention, grandeur, pathos, characterisation; the actual building blocks of storytelling, of which the final resolution is but a part.


Edited by Peter Martin on 01 February 2018 at 1:58pm
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