| Author |
|
Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 1515
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 1
|
post reply
|
|
The possibility of death isn't the only available tension in narrative, it's a shame Mr. Larsen can't see that.
I know Bond isn't going to die from the latest villain's overcomplicated device, I know Indy's going to be ok after the temple falls down on his head, I know no characters in any animated series targeted at young kids are going to die, but still there's a lot of tension there if you know how to tell/show it.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 2
|
post reply
|
|
It's not all about death, anyway.
In addition to dying (or the threat of dying), it can be about numerous things: being incapacitated, having their identity exposed, etc.
Imagine a Superboy story where someone outside Smallville learns that Clark and Superboy are one and the same. We know that he'll save his identity by the end of the book, but we want to find out HOW. What trick does Superboy have up his sleeve? Robot double? Sleight of hand? A clever and contrived way of convincing the person they were wrong?
The fun is in finding out!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | 3
|
post reply
|
|
How deep into the meta-genre do people have to go? Is reading a Batman or Captain America story SO affected by keeping in mind, "This is just a comic book. DC/Marvel will publish Detective Comics/Avengers next month. So there's no need for interest in the story."
Nobody goes to a movie and thinks, "Oh my God! They killed Harrison Ford! Charlton Heston was dragged to the future and DIED when an atomic bomb destroyed the Earth! They'll never be in another movie!" They think that Han Solo or Taylor died... which is part of the story, not the meta story. It COULD happen... and in any number of movies, characters DIDN'T die. Even knowing that shouldn't take the viewer out of the idiom.
These genres are about entertainment. Fiction is about accepting that the situation is NOT FACT. In the end, one could say, "These are just characters in prose/graphics/film. They're all make-believe."
I never minded thinking, "How is he going to get out of this danger?" as long as I knew to follow it with "CAN he get out of this danger?"
Exactly as Robby posted... it's suspension of disbelief in the moment. If someone is reading or watching to deconstruct to the degree of not caring about the character because you know the character has to make it... what's the point of indulging in fiction?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | 4
|
post reply
|
|
And as for Superboy/Superman…Mr. Busiek noted “... Superboy’s world just wasn’t very grim. No one reading itworried that someone would die. Even bad guys pretty much just went to jail. Thethreats the Superboy would be killed by Kryptonite, we mainly wanted to see howhe’d get out of it…” The Kents died.Lex Luthor’s parents died. Someone could die, and that wasn’t the point.Analytically, the ONLY characters we knew would survive for sure were Superboyand Lana Lang. But every Superman story wasn’t about life and death either. Sometimesthey were about someone trying to outsmart Superman. Sometimes they were aboutsomething fun (e.g., Mr. Mxyzptlk stories.) No disrespectto Mr. Busiek, but his perspective is wrong. From today, he’s right; thosestories were pretty milktoast. But at the time (as Robbie P. noted), they werethe standard, and obviously what readers bought. Characters havedied, and that occasional event makes the books worth investing interest. UncleBen, Wonder Man, the Doom Patrol, Thomas and Martha Wayne, Ferro Lad… and even if theywere minor characters (although I really liked the DP), death was apossibility. As for Superboy…I would have liked a scene in a 70s Legion story with Brainiac 5 calling thethree founders into a room of viewscreens. The main one shows the standard 30thCentury. One shows Earth A.D. One shows an Earth under rule of tyrannicalmagicians and sorcerers. One shows an Earth void of humans and occupied byKandorians. Brainiac 5 says,“These are alternate timelines… just the same as we’re an alternate timeline.From Superboy’s era, all of these are equally possible… and every one of theseis where Superboy died. On a Legion mission, or some other way. We can’t changeour time… but some event in the past could. There’s no guarantee that he’llsurvive when he comes to our time… or under any other circumstance.”
Now it makes ita little more important story when Superboy flies to the 30thcentury.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | 5
|
post reply
|
|
I believe "in the moment" is really the only rule to follow. Wrestling, films, comics, etc. It's all relevant.
I thought wrestling was a good analogy (and I'm awful with analogies usually) because there are wrestlers you know are going to win. Sure, the WWF threw us a curveball now and again - "What, he actually won?" - but for the most part, it was predictable. You knew for the first several years of the Hulk Hogan run that, mostly, he would survive whatever behemoths the WWF threw at him. Yes, there were exceptions, but most of his "giant" opponents were slayed.
But I lived in the moment. "Look, Hogan's down on the mat, he's dazed! I really do think this time he's losing that belt." Deep down I knew he was gonna win that match, but when the 400-pound "monster" was throwing Hogan around the ring, I thought, 'Hmmm, he's not gonna win this.'
BATMAN #308 was my first Batman comic. Freeze captured Batman and put him in a plexiglass unit. It seemed hopeless. I knew Batman tales would be on sale next month, but for that *one moment*, it looked hopeless for the Dark Knight. Perhaps Freeze was going to win.
Suspension of disbelief + living in the moment = SATISFACTION.
As has been stated though, it's not all about the threat of dying. There's a great Jimmy Olsen tale where his signal-watch summons...a genie. Published in SUPERMAN'S PAL, JIMMY OLSEN #23. It's not about life and death. But it's about a lot else. I won't spoil the ending for those who haven't read it (it was reprinted in SHOWCASE PRESENTS: SUPERMAN FAMILY #2). But we want to know many things. Who is the genie? Why has he been summoned via Olsen's signal watch? Where's Superman? How does the genie tie into things?
Nothing to do with death or survival, whatsoever.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 6
|
post reply
|
|
DC doesn't have one fixed future. There are multiple Earths and they all have multiple possible futures. That's part of "Hypertime."
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | 7
|
post reply
|
|
Okay, I've Googled Hypertime.
The only problem I have with it is that it encourages anal and pedantic behaviour, I feel. Fans into the concept of Hypertime will want to dot every i and cross every t. And it could lead to pedantic discussions.
"So, which earth was it that Superboy did this?" "It was on that earth, and in that timeline, but I am not sure how this fits into issue #243."
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 8
|
post reply
|
|
Adam S., that's true right now... well, or maybe it's not. That is the biggest problem that DC has... they can't even keep their character histories consistent among themselves!
Back in the day, Hypertime wasn't even a bad dream. There was no possible "reality" where Bruce Wayne was orphaned and then adopted by the Kents, upon whose death, his reaction was so overwhelming that he had to go into the future to join the Legion of Super-Heroes. We called 'em Imaginary Stories. The same as Hypertime, but not quite as organized.
One of the great tenets of the 60s and 70s DC comics was that history can't be changed. The unspoken corollary to that was that "history" couldn't be changed... but current events* COULD. Superboy couldn't stop Lincoln from being assassinated... but Tomahawk and Miss Liberty COULD keep Washington from being killed. Klar-Ken could do nothing about the destruction of the World Trade Center towers... but Wonder Woman could. Pol (Green Lantern) Manning couldn't prevent the Earth from being destroyed in the 31st century... but the Legion could.
Of course, that's now no longer just a comic book super hero story, but one of politics and historic ripples and philosophy and IT'S JUST A COMIC BOOK FOR GOD'S SAKE.
Mr. Byrne was right. Once this starts mattering... it's time to get out of comics.
*Pun intended.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 9
|
post reply
|
|
Eric Sofer wrote:
| Mr. Byrne was right. Once this starts mattering... it's time to get out of comics. |
|
|
Indeed.
Maybe we've all been guilty of "archaeology" at times, but I am very much a live in the moment kind of guy, anyway (except when it comes to paying bills!). All I really care about is what is in front of me at any one point. I don't want "homework", I don't want things 'fixed'.
Something only needs fixing anyway if it's broken. You don't glue a pot that is intact, eh?
I did see some social media replies and some people are tying themselves up in knots about the 30th century timeline. It really does not matter. Wasn't it Buddha who said, "DC timeline not important. Do not fret." Or something like that?
Edited by Robbie Parry on 30 January 2018 at 6:53pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 10
|
post reply
|
|
Archaeology and asking all of the nerdy and anal-retentive questions we love to ask is lots of fun, as long as it doesn't make its way into the books themselves.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Robert Shepherd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 March 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1268
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | 11
|
post reply
|
|
I don't follow Erik Larsen but I have yet to read a comment made by him that I agree with. If anyone has earned my not-a-fan vote, it's this guy.
A great story doesn't need the threat of Superboy dying. A great story will focus on the challenges and hardships he faced to become the hero we all know. It's not hard to comprehend.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
| |
Lars Sandmark
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3144
|
| Posted: 30 January 2018 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | 12
|
post reply
|
|
(The adventures of Superman when he was a boy.)
Comicbook stories that relate 'Adventures' are thrilling and exciting by their nature, and entertain the reader when the reader agrees to 'go along for the ride'.
Comicbook adventures do not need to portray death or even the threat of death to be thrilling and exciting.
Especially if they are done correctly.
The writers of today's comicbooks just don't seem to get that, and I think Larsen may be guilty of this too.
It's fiction, man! Just tell exciting adventure stories.
Like they used to do.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
