Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 17 Next >>
Topic: GET OVER IT!! Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 10:21am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Another god damned Superman reboot. Another Superman #1. Another restart for some characters, and continuing storylines for other characters who overlap. I feel true sympathy and sorrow for the poor bastard assigned to write the Justice League.

And look! Superman #1! Bet it'll be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in a year or two! I'm buying 50! </sarcasm off.>

The Superman character in Action #1 differed greatly from the one in Action #500, through a natural evolutionary, organic process. (I do not qualify "better" or "worse" - merely transformed. You could say "evolved" if you think the latter Man of Steel was better.) Stories slowly changed from Superman fighting normal villains perpetrating social crimes to super villains, super-natural threats*, and yes, even a fun story or two.

Thence the Crisis on Infinite Earths and "The Man of Steel." I am still not convinced that the Crisis was anything more than a huge publicity stunt, but anyone with half a brain would have sat down BEFORE this incredible, irrevocable (well, kinda) event and done the "What Ifs" BEFORE starting it. Maybe Jeanette Khan was in charge at the time? In any case, Crisis gave DC an opportunity to realign and jettison some of the characters'complicated backstory and continuity discrepancies - but they DIDN'T DO IT.

Mr. Byrne's story recreated Superman beautifully. And Superman was still the icon of Truth, Justice, and the American Way - but not literally. His greatest battles against social injustices were trying to stop the corruption of Metropolis as orchestrated by Luthor. He fought super villains, catastrophes, and didn't involve himself so much in social issues of the day.

Then how many times has Superman been recreated? At least the Pu52 reboot and the Dr. Manhattan reboot. How badly has the character been warped to try to get buyer (and media) interest? How far off the model has he been taken to try to be controversial and edgy and salable?

Now Bendis is getting to restart Superman. Personally, I don't like Bendis' work. Don't like his characterization, and more than a few of his heroes seem clayfooted to me. But I'm not the target audience... I'm the audience who would start buying "Superman" again if they printed some Edmond Hamilton, Curt Swan and George Klein stories. (Which is inordinately unlikely.)

But now, with a reboot every three or four years, NO ONE'S continuity applies - and the current continuity will only last for that brief time before ANOTHER "crisis" recreates the DC Universe.

How the hell can they expect to keep a reader base in the third decade of the 21st century (pending)? That's a very particular customer set, and I think they're deliberately avoiding what the reader's want. How can Superman survive THIS enemy?

*Used in its literal sense, not in a mystical sense.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4506
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

 Marios Ksidonas wrote:
Eric i would appreciate your help in what  i am doing wrong with the links!


Marios, when you paste a link directly into your post it will get a break or two depending on how long it is. Your paste had a break in the word "a ction" so anyone pasting the link in their browser would fail.

The way I do it is to write a short blurb about the article, use the mouse to highlight the blurb then click the link button at the above the message box; the one with a globe and chain link. That will bring up a window that you can paste your link into without a break.

I will never understand the complaints that involve JB's Man of Steel. I've never known any of them to hold water or be defensible positions. Man of Steel was the first time sought out a DC comic. My "allegiance" to Marvel was simply the loyalty developed from always buying their comics when I was younger. But Man of Steel was a great way to get introduced to Superman.
Back to Top profile | search
 
marios ksidonas
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 March 2015
Location: Greece
Posts: 106
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

@Eric ...Thanks!!!!
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I hate the idea of starting SUPERMAN over from #1 yet AGAIN, but this doesn't sound like a reboot. It's just "previously unrevealed" stories.

That said, I hate Bendis's writing and am sorry that he'll be taking over the Superman titles.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

 Adam Schulman wrote:
It's just "previously unrevealed" stories.

If the plots for these unrevealed stories were so compelling, why weren't they published many years ago? 
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132666
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 8:15pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

That was Shooter's response to "untold tales." And, like many of Shooter's dictums it was arbitrary, and did not consider the special cases. Sometimes an "untold tale" can be a lot of fun.

But as a series? In a limited sense, maybe (LOST GENERATION), but ongoing?

Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4181
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:
The scene no longer had a place in the mythos, and since it never really worked anyway -- was Pa afraid Clark would run off and become a supervillain without he and Ma keeping him in check? -- I got rid of it. And with the scene gone, there was no reason for the Kents to die.


Agreed. I also liked Clark having some "loved ones" that didn't have a connection to Superman. That one kind of bugged me pre-Man of Steel and I think it's part of the reason old Superman writers felt the need to do "why there's a Clark Kent" stories from time to time. Having the parents around made the need for Clark Kent all the more self-evident.

(Growing up, I tended to prefer Superboy to Superman. I wonder if that's part of the reason?)
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4181
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

 Eric Sofer wrote:
Thence the Crisis on Infinite Earths and "The Man of Steel." I am still not convinced that the Crisis was anything more than a huge publicity stunt,


Maybe, but I like to think of it as an attempt to give the concept being retired (the DC Multiverse) a final hurrah. One thing that annoyed me about using Flashpoint to restart the DCU was that it did nothing to pay tribute to what it was throwing away - a multi-generational DC Earth. They took a glorified Elseworlds and said "oh, by the way, we're starting everything over."


 QUOTE:
but anyone with half a brain would have sat down BEFORE this incredible, irrevocable (well, kinda) event and done the "What Ifs" BEFORE starting it. Maybe Jeanette Khan was in charge at the time? In any case, Crisis gave DC an opportunity to realign and jettison some of the characters'complicated backstory and continuity discrepancies - but they DIDN'T DO IT.


I'm sure they tried... The problem was that, in the process, they ended up creating new ones and then subsequent teams reintroduced the old complications back in anyway (one persons "barnacle" being another's "key element").

Inspired by the upcoming Action Comics #1000 and my unfortunate tendency toward completionism, I've been re-reading/reading Superman from Man of Steel up to today (all ongoings up to the New 52, just Superman and Action during new 52 and just Action post-Rebirth). It's been a little interesting and a lot sad to see all of those elements and character traits that JB discarded gradually working their way back in in some form or another.

Kahn was in charge at the time, but I think the March to the 70s went into hyperdrive once Dan Didio took over for her.

Anyway, it's worth noting that only two then being published series-level characters got a full-up, no-fooling, ignore the back issues we're starting over in the (relative) immediate wake of Crisis (Man of Steel came out seven months later and Wonder Woman four months after that): Superman and Wonder Woman. A few others suffered from collateral damage (Donna Troy, the Legion), but most of the rest had a nip here and a tuck there and that was it. Flushing the entire line in the hopes of reinvigorating two (admittedly key) characters probably would have been seen as a tad drastic.


 QUOTE:
Then how many times has Superman been recreated?


Just for fun, let's count them all:

Original - 1938-1939 (when he was "found by a passing motorist", raised in an orphanage and decided on his own to "turn his titanic strength into channels that would benefit mankind")

With the Kents but no Superboy - 1939-1945? (based on More Fun Comics #101)

With Superboy and company - 1945-1986 (with more details added throughout the years)

Man of Steel - 1986-2003 (aside from what turned out to be a fakeout with Krypton around 2001)

Birthright - 2003-2006

Secret Origin (Johns) - 2006-2011 (hints at first, then the full picture came out)

New 52 (Morrison) - 2011-2016

Rebirth - 2017-2018 (a blended version of Johns and Morrison from what I understand; haven't read it yet)

Bendis - 2018-?

(Nice to find out for sure I won't be reading Action past #1000...)
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4181
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 8:47pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
I tend to agree with the notion that people were simply embittered by the fact that all of the pre-CRISIS minutae had been wiped away, making their Superman-nerd-trivia scorecards useless. All of that time people spent studying the history and geographical formations of Krypton no longer mattered.


While I'm certainly in the "pro-Man of Steel" camp, I think that's more than a little unfair.

If you liked elements like:
* "mild mannered Clark Kent"
* the Fortress of Solitude
* the indestructible cape
* Superboy
* the Lois/Lana rivalry
* evil scientist Lex Luthor
* the super memory, super intelligence, ability to fly through space and travel through time...

If you felt that the death of Kents was pivotal to Superman's heroic development...

If you preferred the idea that Krypton was a thriving world cut down in its prime instead of a sterile world which died long before it exploded...

...there are plenty of reasons to not be enamored of the reboot.

Then of course there's the added salt to the wound that comes from seeing what you consider to be an inferior new direction being hailed as "a revitalization for a moribund character." (I tend to see the Ultimate line (among others) as my way of paying off my karmic debt for being so fond of late 80s DC. :-) )

I notice a lot of us with fond memories of Man of Steel fell firmly in the "pre-JB Superman didn't do much for me" camp (raises hand), which is all well and good. But there's no need to ascribe petty motivations to those who felt differently.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4181
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 8:47pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:
Something else for which I at least partly take the blame. Looking back, I realize it was a huge mistake to bring in the likes of Mxyptlk and Titan, Metallo and the Phantom Zone (even tho the latter was part of the Pocket Universe).

Basically, I opened the doors for the creative teams that followed.


Eh, if you hadn't done it, someone else would have.

(I do wish you would have let DC do "Superman III" in Who's Who, though. I was looking forward to the (anticipated by me anyway) Curt Swan "Superman II" montage.)
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4181
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Robbie Parry wrote:
I'm not quite sure how to articulate this, Mr Byrne, but I wonder if WHO'S WHO? and OHOTMU are, even if only a small way, a part of what went wrong with fandom wanting to know everything and cross every t/dot every i.


Hey, don't be knocking those. Those series are how I discovered things like the New Gods, Goodwin/Simonson Manhunter, the Champions, among others. OHOTMU went overboard with the power metrics and pseudo-science (although the entry on Quasar's wrist bands helped with a Trivial Pursuit question once and those extended entries got me more clip art) admittedly, but those series opened up entire universes for me and many others.

 Robbie Parry also wrote:
If the plots for these unrevealed stories were so compelling, why weren't they published many years ago?


The people coming up with them didn't work in comics yet? :-) If someone has a fine idea for a story with the original Avengers, the satellite era Justice League, the Claremont/Cockrum X-Men, the Golden Age Flash, etc. why not let them tell it? I prefer that approach to flushing everything that's happened since so they can do it "present day" instead.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
Posted: 01 February 2018 at 10:58pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

While I'm certainly in the "pro-Man of Steel" camp, I think that's more than a little unfair.  
+++++++++++

Mind you, I’m not saying that I don’t like the pre-CRISIS elements or think they don’t have merit. I’m just saying that it seems like a lot of people were upset because the playing field had been leveled, and decades’ worth of stories and trivia no longer “counted”.

There’s no accounting for taste, and I have a feeling that the first Superman a fan encounters tends to be “their” Superman. There are absolutely pros and cons to both the pre-and post-CRISIS versions of the character. I think the post-CRISIS version succeeded in capturing the essence of Superman, but I totally understand why people would be upset over losing some of the pre-CRISIS window dressing which had been around for so long.


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 02 February 2018 at 10:52am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

<< Prev Page of 17 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login