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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132666
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 8:44am | IP Logged | 1
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I tend to agree with the notion that people were simply embittered by the fact that all of the pre-CRISIS minutae had been wiped away, making their Superman-nerd-trivia scorecards useless. All of that time people spent studying the history and geographical formations of Krypton no longer mattered.•• There was definitely a huge amount of resentment over the "leveling of the playing field". So many hard core Superman fans who did not like being kicked off their pedestal, and suddenly knowing no more about the character than any schmuck who wandered into their LCS. Another misjudgment on my part. I foolishly believed those people would actually enjoy gathering new data as we went along. I had to remind myself that the greatest danger with "experts" is that their whole focus often becomes nothing more than protecting the area of their expertise.
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Don Berner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 July 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 75
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 2
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re: "Sort of why this Forum exists! ;) " :-I'm fully aware of my hypocrisy. ;) re: "those numbers tapered off quickly" : -I'm kind of shocked. I loved MOS but had also liked pre-crises Supes. Did they fall to near pre-crisis figures?
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7512
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 8:57am | IP Logged | 3
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I was reading Superman back in the '70s and liked the offbeat, out of left field stuff that kept Clark Kent busy. Anything from Brainiac to a busload of Metropolitans whisked off to an alien world and threatened by an evolved chameleon, it could all happen. Terra Man, Lex Luthor's latest scheme... it was great.
But as I read more widely, Superman also started to feel tame and dated. He was drawn looking older, almost middle-aged, and there was a growing lack of urgency in his stories. It would all be okay because Superman.
MAN OF STEEL flipped over the table and reset everything. The stories were exciting. Holy cow, Superman is getting his ass kicked--when's the last time that happened? How is he going to beat these guys?
It was GREAT!! It was all that I wanted.
Some jaded fanboys weren't thrilled? Screw 'em. Yeah, they buy (some of) the books but they don't own the character. Stripping Superman down the basics made it possible to tell better stories with him again, taking him from the world-weary "Great Rao, I'd better come up with another convenient superpower to handle this looks-dangerous-but-isn't threat..." to "I'd better figure out how to beat this guy or everyone in Metropolis dies" kinds of urgency.
FWIW, this old fanboy rediscovered Superman in MOS and I think the reboot saved the character from irrelevance. My two cents.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 4
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ITEM: Had there been blogs of this nature at the time, I likely would have been on complaining about "Man of Steel"... but as a 24 year old "locked in" fanboy who - as Mr. Byrne noted - was an expert on Superman and, when that was changed, was no more important than that guy across the street watering his fire hydrant. But I would have loved to discuss it with others.
ITEM: We will never know how much of "Man of Steel" was Mr. Byrne and how much was DC editorial forcing themselves into the project that they told Mr. Byrne was his and his alone. But, as I've notice before, it seems that an editor doesn't like the flavor of the soup until he pees in it.
ITEM: Rumor has it that Mr. Byrne had a perfectly good way to resolve Superman to the status at the end of MoS #6 without a reboot. I didn't find anything to address this in the FAQs, and only he knows for sure... but I don't doubt that he would have pulled it off cleanly and acceptably (notwithstanding the editors of the previous item.)
ITEM: So help me, the Legion of Super-Heroes was a non-problem that everyone seemed to have a conniption over. Mr. Byrne even drew it in the Secret Origins annual with his stupendous Doom Patrol art. They simply had to base the Legion of a super powered Kryptonian teen... Power Girl. And it's handled. Quickly, easily, and even with some canon involved with a little tweak.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132666
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 5
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ITEM: We will never know how much of "Man of Steel" was Mr. Byrne and how much was DC editorial forcing themselves into the project that they told Mr. Byrne was his and his alone. But, as I've notice before, it seems that an editor doesn't like the flavor of the soup until he pees in it.•• The problem was less editorial -- tho there were definitely problems there -- than with how OTHER people were handling the characters, often without consulting me, and even ignoring me when I asked them not to do something. A classic example was when another editorial office declare its intent to use Luthor in one of their books, and when I pointed out it was far too soon, since Luthor's character was not yet properly established, their response was "We've already done it." (A few months later when I wanted to use one of their characters in an ACTION appearance, I was flat-out forbidden.)
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7512
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 11:20am | IP Logged | 6
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JB: (A few months later when I wanted to use one of their characters in an ACTION appearance, I was flat-out forbidden.)
***
Wonder if you could have done it and then just said, "Ah, I already did it."
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Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3858
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 7
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I had to remind myself that the greatest danger with "experts" is that their whole focus often becomes nothing more than protecting the area of their expertise.--
I have to confess, that made me think of some Stratfordians...
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Richard White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 August 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1058
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | 8
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Those Man of Steel and subsequent comics are just beautiful, some of my favourite super hero comics...sorry, comics.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132666
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 9
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JB: (A few months later when I wanted to use one of their characters in an ACTION appearance, I was flat-out forbidden.) *** Wonder if you could have done it and then just said, "Ah, I already did it." •• There is a popular misconception in some corners of fandom that I am an untrammeled force of nature. That I storm into the offices of various companies, grabbing for myself whichever projects I want, and doing as I please with them. The reality is rather more the opposite. Thru-out the bulk of my career, my work has been subject to almost microscopic review. The slightest variance from the "model" was corrected, often by someone of minimum skill it seemed. My scripts were rewritten -- most often because the EDITOR had gotten it wrong! I've suspected for a long time that this happened it large part because I didn't live near the office. (When I was in Brooklyn Heights and could zip in on the train in about half an hour, interference with my work dropped to a minimum.) So, no, just doing it and saying "already done" was not my option!
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7512
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 10
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It says a lot about your love of comics and dedication to being a professional that you endured this for so long, JB.
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Lars Sandmark
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3144
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 7:57pm | IP Logged | 11
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The obvious problem with bloggers or whatever they're called is that they seem to lack the ability to put these 'old' publications into their proper time and place!
1987 was amillion years ago, and the comicbook story landscape was different than what these millennial know-it-alls assume.
Man Of Steel was necessary for DC at that time and Superman as a title NEEDED John Byrne.
Kids today got no sense of history, and get the hell off my lawn.
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4738
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| Posted: 29 January 2018 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | 12
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Man Of Steel was necessary for DC at that time and Superman as a title NEEDED John Byrne.
*********
As over-dramatic as that sounds, I'd say JB's Superman would be great right about NOW, in the present time... if only the industry weren't WORSE than it was in the late 80s!!
-C!
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