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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 1
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Robert S. - I may get pronged for this, but after 33 years, maybe I can answer your "what changed about Superman" question.
Krypton was not the social civilization it had been, but cold and unemotional (Almost Vuclan in its nature.)
"Kal-El" was not launched to Earth; a fertilized embryo was sent in a rocket to foster his development.
Kal-El was the ONLY survivor of Krypton.
The Kents did not find a two year old baby... they found a newborn infant.
Thanks to a very long blizzard (ref: the Manhunters), the Kents were able to say that Martha bore Clark as their own son, not an adoptee.
Clark Kent's power developed very slowly; there was no Superbaby or Superboy.
The Legion of Super Heroes never existed.
Clark's Superman outfit is plain cloth, not a reweaving of his stretchable Kryptonian blankets.
One of Clark's abilities is a skintight field around him that prevents clothing such as his costume from tearing or getting dirty. (It doesn't extend to his cape, which is how Metropolis Capes and Cloaks Inc. stays in business... :)
Clark's super strength also seems to have an additional component to it that allows him to lift large items without worrying about structural integrity.
Superman did not meet Batman until after he began his career, and they did not get on especially well.
Superman did not know Lex Luthor in their youths. Luthor was a thoroughly evil individual from the start. Also, he wasn't a "super" villain; he was an enterprising controller who was tyrannical and dictator-like. He did not hate Superman for making him bald (and Luthor wasn't bald the first time he met Superman); he hated Superman for trying to break his grip on Metropolis.
I think that covers most of it. Mind you that a lot of this was imposed, and a lot of changes also occurred after "Man of Steel"... but I believe that's a lot of the changes.
Of course, Mr. Byrne knows what else what was changed, or what plans he had that weren't effected. And it's impossible to measure what DC couldn't wait to change back after MoS - changes that they insisted on.
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4184
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 2
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You missed a couple of the biggees:
Ma and Pa Kent are still alive. While, IMO, them not being around by the time he moved to Metropolis was an incidental detail (newspaper strips not really having the space for side trips back home), there’s a segment of fandom that considers the deaths of the Kents to be a significant rite of passage for Superman. It’s a firm reminder he can’t do everything, it’s a dramatic line in the sand between Superboy and Superman, etc.
Pre-JB, Superman was Kal-El, the last Son of Krypton. Clark Kent was a role he played for various reasons – being able to take a break from the responsibilities as Superman, getting to interact with people as people, etc. – but in the end it was a role. I remember him having thoughts like “I might need to give Clark a little more backbone.” Post-JB, Superman was Clark Kent. All of his friends, dreams, aspirations were tied to Clark. Superman was a role he played so he could live up to the responsibilities his powers left him without ruining his chances for people to ever see him as Clark.
Along those lines, when the Superman feature debuted in Action Comics #1, the alien background was just a way to explain why he's lifting cars over his head. He didn't even find out he was from Krypton until Superman #61. (I'm not sure either way if he even knew he was an alien.) So, from that perspective, JB was just restoring what was once there, albeit with some modern twists. However, if “your” Superman is the guy who kept a Kryptonese diary, had a fortress of solitude in the Arctic with an usual key, could visit a bunch of his biological relatives when the stars aligned, etc., it’s very different.
A lot of the surface details were similar and the root of the character was there, but the, say, Cary Bates Superman was very different from the JB one. All changes for the better, IMO, but there were changes.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132867
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 3
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Couple of points: those who howled loudest about the changes I made seemed unaware that many took the form of restoration, bringing back elements that had themselves changed over the years. (Standard complaint: change is bad if it happens after I started readin.)Second, some of those changes are not purely mine. They include elements folded in after I left. (A very curious element is to be seen in those who seem to have confused my origin of Superman with the origin I gave Marina. They insist baby Kal did not take on human form until Martha Kent touched him.)
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Petter Myhr Ness Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 02 July 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 3869
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | 4
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The Legion of Super Heroes never existed.--
Yes, they did, but Superman didn't meet them until he was an adult. The "Pocket Universe" storyline explained how Superboy could feature in the Legion book when there'd never been a Superboy.
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Steven Myers Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5656
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 5
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Personally, I liked it when they had Mon_El fill the role as inspiration for the Legion. He's a Superboy copy, anyway. The "Pocket Universe" solution wasn't needed. I think JB said as much shortly before the revamp, that the Legion could easily exist without Superboy.
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Robert Shepherd Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 30 March 2014 Location: United States Posts: 1268
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 2:50pm | IP Logged | 6
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Eric - Thanks for all the reminders of changes past.
I'm sure I am biased here, but except for the changes to Luthor, none of the changes you mentioned seem that extreme to me. Most changes sound like they are motivated by logic, or believability, or comic book science, or to recapture Superman's uniqueness.
The "Clark First" character change is a big change. But I found Superman much more interesting and more human and vulnerable.
I can see fans of Supergirl....boy...dog...baby getting upset. It just doesn't phase me as I was never a fan of derivative characters anyway.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | 7
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Yes, they did, but Superman didn't meet them until he was an adult. The "Pocket Universe" storyline explained how Superboy could feature in the Legion book when there'd never been a Superboy.
***
Explained cleverly in a story which I've reread many times since 1987!
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Robert Shepherd Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 30 March 2014 Location: United States Posts: 1268
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 8
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I think the reason I was ok with any changes JB made to any characters was that to me, it was clear he showed appreciation for the characters.
Other writers or editors since have shown a lack of appreciation for the characters they made changes too because they wanted to change everything, origins, motivations, history, characters and characterizations, and powers.
Edited by Robert Shepherd on 28 January 2018 at 3:13pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132867
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | 9
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Personally, I liked it when they had Mon_El fill the role as inspiration for the Legion. He's a Superboy copy, anyway. The "Pocket Universe" solution wasn't needed. I think JB said as much shortly before the revamp, that the Legion could easily exist without Superboy.•• Not quite. When I was a child in England, one of my favorite storybooks features the adventures of Young Robin Hood -- our hero as a ten year old, long before he had any of his familiar adventures, and teamed up with Marion, Little John, Tuck, etc, all a kids, all years before they "really" met. I suggested to the the Legion office that they take this approach to Superboy. The tales that inspired the youg Legion members were legends of a time that did not really exist. (In that sense, also not unlike Zorro.) I was assured that "everything was taken care of"… which resulted in a panicked call from my editor as if finally dawned on all concerned that my new origin had eliminated Superboy. Hence, the Pocket Universe. (Not quite sure how Mon-El could serve in Superboy's stead, since he antedated the Legion, and his whole backstory was based on the previous mythology.)
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Steven Myers Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5656
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 10
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I don't remember exactly, but they rebooted Man-El as Valor, a Daxamite hero from the 20th century who was then frozen in time and returned years later as a Legionnaire. Not sure if the Phantom Zone was used or not.
Of course, this is 8 or 9 Legion reboots ago....
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | 11
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I was assured that "everything was taken care of"… which resulted in a panicked call from my editor as if finally dawned on all concerned that my new origin had eliminated Superboy. Hence, the Pocket Universe.
***
You should have been given the Nobel Prize in Literature for that, sir. You know, it was the comic equivalent of a soccer goalkeeper making an impossible save!
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Don Berner Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 06 July 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 75
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | 12
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Back to your initial statement that someone was "critiquing" your work 22 years later-it's because the internet and various ideology shifts have convinced people that not only must they hold an opinion on everything but that each and every thought we have is interesting and should be given voice.
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