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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133325
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 6:55am | IP Logged | 1
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Mr Byrne, I think I remember Marvel explained this by creating impersonators or replacement to act as Captain America during this gap.Am I wrong? •• That's what I was referring to when I mentioned those who "felt the need to explain how Cap's adventures could have extended some ten years past the end of WW2." And which Unca Rog dismissed by saying they could just have been comicbook stories in the MU. To make things extra unfortunate, those stories (which were happening right around the time I was returning to reading comics) happened during the Age of Relevance, so a great deal of heavy handed moralizing was dumped into them.
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David Schmidt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 July 2017
Location: France
Posts: 441
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 7:06am | IP Logged | 2
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I'd like to come back to this interesting finding that nobody complains about cartoon heroes when they don't age.
In France for exemple it's the same with comic book heroes: I don't think anybody ever wondered why Tintin, Asterix or Lucky Luke are not aging...
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133325
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 3
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It used to be just the nutballs out on the fringe who complained about characters not aging. Sadly, as the marketplace has shrunk, it has been those on the fringe who have continued to be loyal, and thus the fringe has moved closer to the center.I've mentioned the Seven Year Rule. So many people were grumbling about "how much time had passed" since the FF went up in their rocket, that an unofficial edict began to circulate in the Office. It had been seven years since that fateful trip and -- the important part! -- IT WOULD ALWAYS BE SEVEN YEARS. That worked fine. I had often pointed out that anyone sitting down to number the days in the FF's run would have trouble finding more than a couple of years for the characters. Stories like the original Galactus "trilogy", for instance, took place in one afternoon! And that tale grew right out of the previous adventure. Unfortunately, there were mini-brains who were eager to misunderstand the Seven Year Rule (especially since it was not "official"). The first such example I remember was when a writer for a fanzine said the Rule didn't work, because there was no way the stories were taking place in 1968. (This was around 1977.) The second bit of lunacy came a few years later, when people started calculating the "scale," and deciding that if it was seven years at this point, ten years later it must be nine years. . . And so on. sigh
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133325
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 7:16am | IP Logged | 4
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With the exception of JB's Superman, every other 'new version' of a major character after CRISIS sucked Kryptonian Babbotch extremities. The only saving grace for the whole mess was that Jonathan and Martha Kent were alive. EVERY other character/title as of 1986 was inferior to what had gone before.The way CRISIS treated Wonder Woman w•• Whether that's true or not, there was one thing about my Superman that distinguished it from so many of the other relaunches: I had been thinking about it for a LONG time. Since the first Christopher Reeve SUPERMAN movie in 1978, in fact. While so many other writers and editors just jumped in with whatever had popped into their heads that week.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 5
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Unfortunately, there were mini-brains who were eager to misunderstand the Seven Year Rule (especially since it was not "official").
***
What an absolute waste of energy, time and brainpower.
I just want to enjoy comics on their own terms. Again, sorry to return to Scooby-Doo, but when I saw the gang using modern devices (in a fairly recent TV movie), I didn't start wondering how they could have also met Sonny and Cher.
You just don't think about timeframes.
I try to live in the moment. It's a philosophy of mine. I don't even have to try hard to do that. I simply DO IT. And that applies to comics. I'll enjoy whatever is happening in a comic at any time. Topical references come and go (like they do in, say, Bond films), but I don't delve into it.
I cannot imagine anything more self-defeating, anal, pedantic and tedious than sitting there scrutinizing and twisting the seven-year-rule.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2366
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 6
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"Compromise" was not always a dirty word--something our politicians and, yes, comic book fans and creators forget to do these days.
Looking at the comments here and remembering conversations with friends and strangers, I might guess that half the people understand and LIKE Earth Two and the concept of the Multiverse and the other half don't.
Compromise would say leave the Multiverse alone and let its fans enjoy (at the time) ALL-STAR SQUADRON, INFINITY INC., THE HUNTRESS, POWER GIRL, THE JUSTICE SOCIETY/ALL-STAR COMICS, etc. Leaving the Multiverse intact would also have left Donna Troy and the Legion of Super-Heroes undamaged. And Superman would have remained the first super-hero of each world. (Him being labeled a "new guy" diminished his standing.) If interaction between Earth One and Earth Two was deemed too confusing, an edict could have been dictated that the two would remain separate--perhaps even an Earth Two imprint could have been created. (DC had no problem with creating the Vertigo imprint and keeping those characters mostly separated from the main line.) Personally, I would have loved to have seen solo series for the original DR. FATE, THE SPECTRE, HOURMAN, WILDCAT, and probably a few others.
And the people who didn't like the Multiverse could read everything else.
But Compromise was thrown out the window and it was declared "No parallel Earth stories!"--for decades! Creative freedom was replaced by numerous "fix-it" stories. ("Who is Donna Troy--really?" "Who inspired the Legion of Super-Heroes?" "So Black Canary helped found the JLA instead of the non-existent Wonder Woman?") Instead of Supergirl being Superman's cousin (an easy description half the Western World understood), she was now the "ghost of an alien angel" or some garbage.
Likewise, over at Marvel, "Marvel-Time" was a nice compromise. Between the people who wanted characters to age real-time (and, yes, there were and are a lot of those) and people who wanted the characters to never age, a statement of "Yes, they've been around a few years now" was the compromise that allowed fans (and writers) of different mindsets to peacefully co-exist.
I just don't understand why either company would go out of its way to tick off one half of its readership or the other.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 11:12am | IP Logged | 7
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Still sounds like "tail wagging the dog" to me, Eric. There'd have always been at least one person dissatisfied with such a policy.
You know, in any place I've worked in, when the managers/colleagues are talking about a night out (i.e bowling), you can get a dozen people agree to it - until one person puts his hands up and says, "Not for me, sorry." And then your idea for a night out is fucked.
This is what catering to the whims of fandom has resulted in. Some people have suggested what could have been done here; but there'd have always been "John Doe" from somewhere, so eager to complain about such things.
Editorial and management should not have been answering these questions. Someone not happy because Story A in 1985 contradicts sub-plot B/throwaway comment C in 1965? Tough! They should have been ignored.
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Dale Lerette
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 March 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 750
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 11:25am | IP Logged | 8
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I've mentioned the Seven Year Rule. So many people were grumbling about "how much time had passed" since the FF went up in their rocket, that an unofficial edict began to circulate in the Office. It had been seven years since that fateful trip and -- the important part! -- IT WOULD ALWAYS BE SEVEN YEARS.
___________________________
I don't come on here often, but this is such an amazing insight I had not considered before! It would be like a slide-rule always seven years counting down from the present state of affairs. So it doesn't matter if it was 20 years in real-life or a couple, it would always be within seven years.
Thank you for sharing this rule of thumb.
Edited by Dale Lerette on 30 August 2017 at 11:25am
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Eric Smearman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 5823
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 9
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It seems like there's way more effort involved in misunderstanding the
"sliding timeline" rule than just running with it. I still remember the
explanation in SUPERBOY that Superman is ALWAYS 29 NOW. So
Superboy's adventures are always at least 13 years BEFORE NOW.
How is that hard?
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Eric Smearman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 5823
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 10
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A lot of the Post-Crisis confusion didn't have to happen. The
Superman/Superboy/Legion thing was addressed pretty well, I thought.
Someone, somewhere, for whatever reason screwed that up a few
years later. The Wonder Woman and Hawkman glitches could've been
avoided entirely had their respective reboots, like Superman's and
Batman's, been retroactive. Easy-peasy.
Edited by Eric Smearman on 30 August 2017 at 2:06pm
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James Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 2159
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | 11
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Thing is, there was NOTHING WRONG with (E1 and E2) Hawkman's history.
One was an archaeologist who debuted in 1940/41. The other was an extra-terrestrial who appeared ~ 18 years later.
The Nth metal, I assume, is what links both characters.
How could DC screw this up?
Edited by James Johnson on 30 August 2017 at 2:41pm
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 30 August 2017 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 12
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James - it was screwed up when some writer got the opportunity, and the excuse, to put his own taint upon Hawkman. "Hey, I can be part of the legacy TOO!" - and once again, the artist became more important than the art.
One expects changes, but as has been noted... it is expected also that when a writer is finished with a character, he puts the toys back in the closet for the next writer. He doesn't tear the lid off the jack-in-the-box or remove an arm from the teddy bear.
There were a couple of cases at DC where some radical (but NOT irreversible) changes occurred and hit really hard. Again, I go back to the New Teen Titans, a runaway hit. And someone thought that, having caught lightning in a bottle once or twice, that doing something radical to EVERY SINGLE TITLE would make each of those titles a big hit. Or so it seemed.
As for the Legion... some no-brain couldn't put two and two together to think that A) the Titans could have inspired the Legion, or B) rather than Supergirl... it could have been Power Girl.
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