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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4184
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Posted: 29 August 2017 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 1
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Scooby Doo's arguably drawn "realistic," but it really boils down to the "rules" of a series. Some series are designed around a formula. Some series are designed around character development. Either approach has it merits and demerits.
Every episode of Scooby Doo has the same formula. Show up in the van, encounter a weird situation, unmask the "ghost," dumb joke at the end, etc. No soap opera, no character evolution, etc.
With something like Spider-Man, by #8 he'd lost the glasses and found a girlfriend, by #28 he'd graduated from high school, by #50 he'd moved out of his Aunt's house, etc. So it was established early on as a series where the character ages. The decision may have been made early on to apply the brakes to avoid getting him too old too soon (although they never stopped aging him completely) but by then the precedent was set.
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17699
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Posted: 29 August 2017 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 2
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It's because they're drawn "cartoony." Superhero comics are drawn less "cartoony." So therefore they must be "more realistic."
It's stupid but some people let their eyes override their brains, so to speak.
—
Sooo… When Neal Adams drew Batman, he should have aged, but when Darwyn Cooke drew him…
Ugh. My head hurts.
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Adam Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017 Posts: 1717
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Posted: 29 August 2017 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 3
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Hey, I did say it was stupid!
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 29 August 2017 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 4
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Every episode of Scooby Doo has the same formula. Show up in the van, encounter a weird situation, unmask the "ghost," dumb joke at the end, etc. No soap opera, no character evolution, etc.
***
In a way, I think that's better.
I found cartoons such as MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE and THUNDERCATS to be consistently entertaining - despite never really straying from a formula or changing anything. There were little subtle moments of character development (i.e. Prince Adam's frustration at being perceived as a playboy prince), but the status quo was always reset at the end of an episode.
And yet somehow those 130 episodes sure never got boring for me. Nor has decades of SCOOBY-DOO cartoons. Sure, there are some that are not as good or mediocre - but on the whole, I've enjoyed 95% of them. Perhaps a case can be made for sticking to a formula over time.
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4184
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Posted: 29 August 2017 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | 5
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Well, it's hard to assess the quality of The Path Not Taken given that those stories don't exist. :-)
But there's no reason that every series has to follow the same rules.
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Brian O'Neill Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013 Location: United States Posts: 1964
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Posted: 29 August 2017 at 8:37pm | IP Logged | 6
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Robbie: 95% of Scooby Doo episodes? Even the Scrappy ones?;-)Anything without Fred, Velma, and especially Daphne, happened on 'Earth-Doo'.
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John Wickett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 July 2016 Location: United States Posts: 862
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Posted: 29 August 2017 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 7
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@ Adam Schulman, re: Infinity Inc.
What you're saying just reinforces my point. The fact that those retcons would be so easy to make the is reason they keep doing it!
Why worry about the reason Superman and Batman look so young? Instead, just ignore it and write good stories. That's what Marvel did for years. Originally Reed Richards and Ben Grimm were WW2 vets. When that fact became incompatible with the current stories (because the characters would be too old) writers simply stopped mentioning it and most fans forgot. There was no need to reboot the FF franchise to explain that they were really pilots in a more recent war.
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
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Posted: 30 August 2017 at 12:06am | IP Logged | 8
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Marvel pretty much always felt more contemporary and in touch with the "kids of today" than DC, and with a handful of exceptions like New Teen Titans (which was the most "Marvel" of DC's books), DC felt really stiff and stodgy compared to mid-eighties Marvel. The post-Crisis books felt so much more modern than their predecessors, and I think that's what the real legacy of Crisis should be.
We got one of the all-time great runs on Superman by John Byrne, who'd been producing many of Marvel's best books of the eighties; we got a revitalized, streamlined Batman courtesy of Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli, who produced one of the best four-issue arcs of any comic ever; we got George Perez's character-defining run on Wonder Woman; we got the brilliant Giffen-DeMatteis-Maguire run on Justice League...DC was setting trends again instead of following them.
Much as I loved all the DC characters from the Superman movies, the Wonder Woman TV show, Super Friends, the Plastic Man cartoon, and any number of other media tie-ins as a kid, I wouldn't have picked up a DC comic over a Marvel ever as a kid until Crisis knocked the dust off of their characters.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 30 August 2017 at 4:04am | IP Logged | 9
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Brian O'Neill - among your many discussion worthy topics, the Phantom Lady story was in the Wonder Woman mini-series-within-a-series, #s 291 - 293 - "Judgment in Infinity", which was supposed to include every DC super heroine (and didn't... Mary Marvel, Batgirl, Hawkgirl, and Mera never showed up, despite some of them being in the ads.) It got to show a couple Teen Titans - VERY hot guest stars. Most importantly, it was the only pre-Crisis meeting of Supergirl and Power Girl. (Your trivia maven here paid close attention to that one.) Supergirl and Madame Xanadu joined Phantom Lady on Earth-X - one wonders what the Nazis could possibly have prepared to counter the Girl of Steel, but I guess that wasn't the point.
It certainly did exploit the concept of multiple Earths, though!
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Dale Lerette Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 March 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 750
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Posted: 30 August 2017 at 4:12am | IP Logged | 10
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Interesting that DC brought back the Golden Age Flash in 1961 whereas Marvel brought back the Timely Comics Captain America in 1964. Two very different ways to bring back old characters.
I think Marvel's way was much simpler and more effective. No alternative realities were were needed. I know it's still a bit anal, but the story worked well with Captain America.
Edit: In the case of Captain America, he was a man "out of time" who struggled with contemporary issues -- so it worked. But I don't recall the Golden Age Flash ever having this same issue. In that way, the 'parallel universe' narrative for Flash seems like a cheap gimmick to me.
Edited by Dale Lerette on 30 August 2017 at 4:26am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133324
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Posted: 30 August 2017 at 5:11am | IP Logged | 11
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Interesting that DC brought back the Golden Age Flash in 1961 whereas Marvel brought back the Timely Comics Captain America in 1964. Two very different ways to bring back old characters. I think Marvel's way was much simpler and more effective. No alternative realities were were needed. I know it's still a bit anal, but the story worked well with Captain America. •• There was nothing "anal" about AVENGERS 4. That all came later. When Stan and Jack brought Captain America into the current stories, they were operating at a time when the fan audience turned over about every five years, and when few (at least, few who mattered) worried about the passage of time in comics. Cap had been in the ice around 20 years when he first emerged. That span would create problems for later anal-retentives. Those who, for instance, felt the need to explain how Cap's adventures could have extended some ten years past the end of WW2. Roger Stern used to scoff at such nonsense, saying it was easy enough to simply have those later adventures be comic books published at the time.
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David Schmidt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 July 2017 Location: France Posts: 441
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Posted: 30 August 2017 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 12
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There was nothing "anal" about AVENGERS 4. That all came later. When Stan and Jack brought Captain America into the current stories, they were operating at a time when the fan audience turned over about every five years, and when few (at least, few who mattered) worried about the passage of time in comics. Cap had been in the ice around 20 years when he first emerged. That span would create problems for later anal-retentives. Those who, for instance, felt the need to explain how Cap's adventures could have extended some ten years past the end of WW2. Roger Stern used to scoff at such nonsense, saying it was easy enough to simply have those later adventures be comic books published at the time.
********
Mr Byrne, I think I remember Marvel explained this by creating impersonators or replacement to act as Captain America during this gap.
Am I wrong?
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