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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 4:57am | IP Logged | 1
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I think too many people overthink things. Not accusing anyone here, but fandom in general.
Spider-Man showed up in a TRANSFORMERS comic, circa 80s. Or was it the Transformers in a SPIDER-MAN comic? Anyway, I accepted it for what it was - and found it pretty cool at the time. Yet I do remember some people saying things like, "Why hadn't there been mention of giant robots in the Marvel Universe previously?"
WTF?!
Are we privy to a hero's EVERY moment? Maybe, off-panel, the likes of General Ross, Jonah Jameson and others have mentioned giant robots - but we didn't see it (just like we don't see them taking a bath or using the toilet).
Spider-Man teamed with the Transformers. Enough said! Why analyze it?
I was most disappointed to learn that the Superman/Spider-Man team-ups took place on Earth-63485238477 or whatever the designation is. What a pedantic and anal policy by the comic book companies. There was NO problem with the Man of Steel and the web-slinger existing on the same earth, so why create boring designations? Other than the most obsessed comic book archaeologist, who on earth would designate earths with different numbers?
Just let things be. I had no problem with Superman showing up on Eternia (an issue of DC COMICS PRESENTS). Godzilla showing up to battle Marvel characters is fine. I see NO NEED for all these bizarre earth designations.
I like the idea that Spider-Man, the one who Lee/Ditko created, is just one. It's quite silly when I am later told by someone, "Oh, you do know that the Spider-Man who teamed with the Transformers is a different web-slinger from Earth-899282-Kiss-My-Ass.
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Adam Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017 Posts: 1717
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | 2
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Would it be a breach of the rules if this thread turned to a discussion of DC Rebirth, what's being done right and what isn't?
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | 3
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Adam S... why not just start a new topic? You'd have your subject right in the topic line, and all.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133324
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | 4
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When Superman first met Spider-Man, I was initially expecting some sort of dimensional travelling, but I was fine with them being on the same Earth so their supporting casts could meet too--for this one story! (If one thought about it, this must be yet another parallel Earth where both Marvel and DC characters lived--a concept that could boggle the mind!) No need to explain why Superman was never around to help whenever Galactus came calling. (A problem Marvel needlessly gave itself when they retroactively created "Silver Age" heroes the Blue Marvel and the Sentry.)•• Where were the Avengers when Galactus came around? Oh, right. They were off being fictional characters in their own titles.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 5:57pm | IP Logged | 5
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No need to explain why Superman was never around to help whenever Galactus came calling.
***
That was a question, one of many, that never crossed my mind, Eric.
I loved the shared earth concept of the early DC/Marvel crossovers. It didn't create any pedantic problems in my mind. After those crossovers, I never wondered where Superman was when Galactus returned - or anything like that.
Same with Spider-Man/Transformers. I never wondered to myself, 'Well, where the hell were the Autobots when their adopted planet was being threatened by Kang or Galactus.'
I just accepted each comic on its own merits.
I think fandom has complicated things. I lost the will to live, about 20 years ago, when someone I know, who was in "archaeologist mode", was talking to me about earths and asking how this earth and that earth slotted in with continuity.
Just enjoy the books for what they are. This isn't a science project. We're not sitting a mathematics exam where we must get the answers right. Just enjoy a book on its own merits - and if the Autobots show up in Latveria or Bruce Banner gets a job at S.T.A.R. Labs - just enjoy it! Have fun. When webs heralded the arrival of Spider-Man in a Transformers comic, the only word that came to my mind was "GREAT!". Working out continuity or wondering what earth it was taking place on was absolutely NOT on my mind!
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John Wickett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 July 2016 Location: United States Posts: 862
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | 6
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"So, my answer to my own subject heading question is: Yes, CRISIS ruined things. Is there any way to cure that "We can reboot anything we want--consequences be damned!" mindset that is so pervasive now?"
Unfortunately, I don't see this happening.
The problem is they seem determined to make whatever continuity they keep work in real time, and there is just no way to do that.
For example: Superman is supposed to be around 29-30 (although that may have changed now that he has a son), and be the first superhero of this generation, but that affects everything else.
Two problems are created:
1. You are forced to cram more and more history into a roughly seven year period of time, which ultimately becomes impossible because other characters age and progress- Dick Grayson and Wally West being the best examples.
2. As you keep moving Superman's debut forward in time, you become more and more distant from the golden age. Therefore, it becomes less and less likely that any JLA/JSA team-ups occurred absent time travel, and more and more difficult to explain the "legacy" characters that are so important to DC. We're now more than 60 years past the time when the JSA was forced into retirement, so it would be absurd at this point for their kids (who would now also be elderly) to pick up the torch and begin having adventures as Infinity Inc. In ten more years it will be almost impossible for Barry Allen to ever have met Jay Garrick.
As these problems become evident, the only apparent solution (for a continuity slave) is a reboot.
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Warren Scott Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 July 2016 Posts: 201
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | 7
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I have to agree with Eric Sofer, Eric Janson, Robbie Parry and perhaps a few others, who had no problem with characters crossing over from other worlds or companies. When I saw Wildcat with Batman in the Brave and the Bold, I didn't know he was a 1940s (and Earth 2) hero. And if I had,it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch to think of him as the Earth 1 version. I thought the idea of presenting Superman and Spider-Man as being in the same world was a fresh idea, especially since the team-up was presented as a special event. And inconsistencies between television shows and comics certainly didn't bother me since my first exposure to Batman and Spider-Man were reruns of their 1960s shows, which were much different from the 70s comics out at the time (I was under 12 at the time.) I don't know if fans or writers are to blame but I have to agree with JB about a certain mentality taking over. It wasn't enough to ignore aspects of a comic deemed embarrassing or convoluted, characters had to be killed off or back stories rewritten. It was probably the first sign that comics' audience was aging. Before that, many readers had moved on to other things (even other comics), so the need for strict continuity over the course of a lengthy series wasn't needed.
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Warren Scott Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 July 2016 Posts: 201
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | 8
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One note on Crisis and then I'll shut up. One thing it, and a guide to DC's characters that was running at the same time, did was re-introduce some characters that hadn't been seen in some time and revive some interest in some of them. For example, I can't recall seeing much of Jack Kirby's Apokolips characters in the early 80s before Crisis. In some cases, it didn't make much sense to bring them back only to kill them off, especially when some supposedly wouldn't be remembered after the Crisis anyway. But while Crisis could be fun for having all of these DC characters pop up together, it also had a dark soap opera quality in that it became about who was going to be killed off next. And perhaps we can blame DC's craving media attention for that, since the deaths of The Flash and Supergirl received a lot of that.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12715
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 6:50pm | IP Logged | 9
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Superheroes in their own comicbooks must be able to stand alone. When in his debut The Lizard planned to take over the world, what reader in his right mind would want that great story cut-down and side-tracked by Spider-Man merely making a "help!" call to The Avengers or The Fantastic Four...?! In any given superhero's comicbook the stake must be singularly high for that superhero -- or there's no point having him, eh?
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Rick Whiting Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Posts: 2215
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | 10
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And JB is on point about fanboys and elitism. Question is, can those problems ever be solved?
_______________________________
Yes it can be fixed by doing the following 2 things.
1. Like JB said earlier, taking control away from the fanboys turned pro who are running the Big 2 into the ground and put someone in charge who isn't driven and controlled by their selfish elitist naval gazing fan ideas,questions,and desires.
2. A boss being brutally honest and stern with those selfish elitist naval gazing anal retentive fans and "fans turned pro" and letting them know from the jump that (a) their are certain questions that should not be asked and will not be addressed within the comics (b) none of these stories are permanently set in continuity stone and will be either changed.retconned out of continuity,and/or ignored and never mentioned again without an in story explanation due to either updating the stories to make them seem more modern or because those stories simply didn't work and did nothing but damaged the characters.
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Brian O'Neill Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013 Location: United States Posts: 1964
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Posted: 28 August 2017 at 9:34pm | IP Logged | 11
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One thing that got to be annoying after a while, in Superman stories of the '70s/'80s was the need to have Superman keep mentioning that 'the other JLAers are on a mission in space'(or whatever excuse precluded them from appearing)." I guess DC must have been just as annoyed to get letters from people wondering why the JLA can't just handle any and every situation that pops up in any hero's title.
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Adam Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017 Posts: 1717
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Posted: 29 August 2017 at 1:01am | IP Logged | 12
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Adam S... why not just start a new topic? You'd have your subject right in the topic line, and all.
---
I thought that might be a breach of the rules too. I just don't want to break this list's rules.
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