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Topic: Did CRISIS ruin the Industry? Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

For a kid justdipping their toes into the DC universe, the whole thing with the multiple versions of the characters and multiple Earths, imaginary stories, etc., it was all a bit daunting. What Crisis did was streamline things, expose me to other characters and books I wasn't familiar with and set things up for a more cohesive line.

••

Just to make sure I understand you ------

Various monthly titles in which multiple iterations of the characters appeared from time to time (but mostly didn't) was "daunting", but a single series in which every single one of those iterations appeared all at the same time, that was a "gift"?

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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Yeah, the JSA appearing once a year with the Justice League was too confusing...and so were all the multiple, interconnected solo books featuring each member of the team(that must have happened on some Earth somewhere). Thank God the X-Men books in the '90s were never like that...
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Nathan Greno
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 10:28am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

When I was a kid, I found DC's multiple Earth concept fun. Sure, I didn't totally understand which old Superman stories were actually set in Earth-1 or Earth-2 -- that level of detail didn't matter to me. I liked to learn about the characters and their back stories, but I didn't sweat over it. I looked at comics as entertainment -- they weren't a "job". 

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Brad Brickley
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I never found Earth-Two to be daunting at all. There was always a brief two or three panel explanation to what Earth-Two was all about. Seemed easy and I just went with the story from there. 
As for Crisis, it was a fun story, but I think it would have been better off either ending with a hard reboot or just a regular save the multi-verse type of ending.
I tend to lean towards soft reboots, ignoring story elements that don't work anymore and going with what does still work from there. 
I'm over the big multi-part, company wide crossovers. The last New 52 reboot was where I finally dropped buying comics. 
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

looked at comics as entertainment -- they weren't a "job". 

***

Perfect!

Does such a mindset "infect" other fandom? I don't know a dozen or so James Bond fans, but I was on a Bond forum once. I never came across anyone complaining about timeline inconsistencies and the like. I never met anyone who wanted to "join up" the literary and film Bond. I think they just accepted it.

As did I with Dr. Who. There are inconsistencies between later/modern episodes - and what was presented to us in William Hartnell's early tales. Doesn't matter.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I think there are two parts of "Crisis-Think" that went on.

One aspect was someone saying, "Earth-1! Earth-2! Earth-S! Earth-Q! The readers can't keep track of all of these different Earths! Every time Captain Marvel or Plastic Man appears, we lose sales! We have to eliminate 'em all!" DISCUSSION: I obviously didn't take a nationwide poll (the Neilsen folks were busy that week) but I don't know anyone who couldn't get the idea of multiple Earths and different dimensions. Possibly the cosmic origins were daunting... but who needed to know that Grig told Og to pull his finger*, and the outcome in the one world he did, it became Earth-1; in one world he didn't, it was Earth-2; in the world where Og slugged Grig with a club, it became Earth-3, etc. I didn't need to know every day of Bruce Wayne's training to know how he became able to pick any lock; they said he could and I bought that.

Another aspect was (possibly a different) someone saying, "Clark Kent is dating Lois Lane and is a TV reporter? Bruce Wayne lives in a tower? Dick Grayson isn't Robin? The Justice League is in a warehouse in Detroit? The readers can't keep track of all these changes!" DISCUSSION: All of these were implemented by editors to keep the characters a little different and fresh. Why was Superman being a TV reporter any more incomprehensible than his being a newspaper reporter? Why wouldn't Diana Prince get a job out of military intelligence? Yes, it was different, and IF a reader had read a few older books, skipped some time, and then read books several years later, it could be confusing. Whether or not the characters should have changed is a different discussion; the fact was that they HAD, and there was no good way to get the music back in the piano.

And while Crisis addressed both of these issues, the key is that THESE SITUATIONS WOULD HAVE TO REOCCUR ANYHOW. Have to! I obviously cannot speak for Mr. Byrne, but I'll bet that he didn't intend to leave Superman as he was in 1940... Daily Planet**, Lois, Perry, fighting petty crooks and social crime, knowing of Batman but never interacting with him - these are all basic elements. Man of Steel #6 seemed to be the catalyst to jumping off with new stories, characters, and "attachments."

That's what Crisis seemed designed to do. And in another thirty years, they would have a similar situation as existed in 1985. The details would have differed; the nature of the situation would have occurred.

The solution was simple, as Mr. Byrne has pointed out time and again. You're the editor, you know the readers don't like 3599+ other Green Lanterns - then just don't use them. You don't want a reminder that Arthur Curry Jr. exited and was killed by Black Manta - don't mention it. You're bothered by the fact that Superman is a hundred years older than anyone thinks - leave it out.

I think that too many editors and creators wanted to have a complicated story - but one that THEY created. It started becoming more about the creators than the characters at that early date, and that was the beginning of the end.

*And THAT'S the oldest joke in the book!
**Daily Planet, Daily Star - don't start with me, I'm on a roll.
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

**Daily Planet, Daily Star - don't start with me, I'm on a roll.

In the '80s. some independent publisher put out indexes to a few DC titles(using basically the same format Marvel had for theirs).
The CRISIS volume contained capsule summaries of each Earth...including the explanation/conjecture that E. Nelson Bridwell created an 'alternate Earth-2', on which Clark Kent worked for the Daily Star and George Taylor well into the 1950s, since this is what Bridwell depicted in his 'Mr. and Mrs. Superman' feature in SUPERMAN FAMILY. (As opposed to 'regular' Earth-2, where Taylor and the Star became Perry White and the Planet after just a few issues of ACTION COMICS) A bit extreme 'point of diversion' there!
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

 Adam Schulman wrote:
Mike -- I always thought it was supposed to be a rule. When it became clear that a few superheroes with powers -- not even magical powers like Sargon, but "scientific" powers -- had appeared on Earth-One before Superboy, that made for an awkward revelation. I'm thinking of Air Wave and Commander Steel in particular. (The latter wasn't even a character who who'd really been around in the 1940s! He was created in the 1970s!)
Again, I think it was a fan rule. One that wasn't in play by the pros. When Roy Thomas came to DC he brought some "fanthink" with him (being one of the first fans turned pros) Roy was always one for timelines, exact dates and retcons, even at Marvel. 
Using my own "fanthink", Superboy's career, which seems to start as a preteen, allows for a decade or so of  superheroes to exist before he becomes Superman. (longer if you count Superbaby!) and still lets Kal-el be the first Earth-1 superhero. Though I believe the idea that Superman was the first Superhero on Earth-1 is also a fan idea. 

I don't recall if the Steel's short lived series from the 70's was set on Earth 1 or 2. 


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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 12:57pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

When I was working on MAN OF STEEL I discovered many fans think superheroes are named for Superman, cuz he was first!
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

If I remember right, the 'exception' to the 'Superboy was first' rule was Captain Comet, since he had been published from 1951 to '54, but was much later confirmed to be an Earth-1 character.

---

Robbie -- you're right. I forgot about Captain Comet.

Then again I've never read a Captain Comet story, so, I beg everyone's forgiveness. Did any of his stories take place on Earth or only in space?
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Aside from a two-part origin story set on Earth, the rest of CC's STRANGE ADVENTURES series took place in space. He was generally Earth-based when he was revived in the '70s, as a SECRET SOCIETY OF SUPER VILLAINS 'co-star'.
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

CRISIS was never released in Norway, just referenced in the editorials after the various reboots started appearing (like MAN OF STEEL). As a young comic book reader, I never felt that I'd missed anything by not reading it. For example, the death of Supergirl was made redundant by the fact that she never existed in the first place, according to the new Superman timeline. Years later, of course, the writers started referencing Crisis all the time, and then we got a second (and a third) Crisis event.

I eventually had to pick a TP of the original series. I have really only one good thing to say about it: George Perez' art is stellar as always.
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